Clock with a figure of a rhinoceros. Wall clock

The Hermitage and Rodina magazine continue their joint project, in which we introduce readers to little-known rarities from the storerooms of the main Russian museum.

Clock with a figure of a rhinoceros. On a gilded rocaille pedestal, a patinated figure of a rhinoceros is approved, carrying an hour drum on its back, entwined with a garland and crowned with a figure of a Chinese man with an umbrella in his hand. Signature on the dial: Thiout Laine a "Paris. Above the number XII: R. A. Bronze; casting, embossing; patination, gilding. France. Paris. Third quarter of the 19th century. 68 x 43 x 18. Inv. No. Epr-4804 Receipt: in 1925 from the Museum of the Revolution, kept in the Winter Palace until 1920. Photo: Nikolai Naumenkov/TASS

Thanks to the work of restorers, all the clocks on display in the Hermitage are in good condition. They are regularly wound up, and the hands indicate the real time. A watch with a figure of a rhinoceros is an exception, and although their mechanism is in good order, the time on the dial is unchanged - two hours ten minutes after midnight.

Next to the clock there is a memorial marble plaque with the inscription:

"In this room, on the night of October 25-26 (November 7-8), 1917, the Red Guards, soldiers and sailors, who stormed the Winter Palace, arrested the counter-revolutionary bourgeois Provisional Government." This historical moment and immortalized by the clock hands with the figure of a rhinoceros: on the night of October 25-26, after a long wander around the Winter Palace plunged into complete darkness, a dozen armed revolutionaries, led by Vladimir Antonov-Ovseenko, guided by the sounds of speech, reached the Small Dining Room, where thirteen members of the Provisional government. Antonov declared the Provisional Government deposed; its members were arrested and taken to the Peter and Paul Fortress.

A new time has begun. But the clock with the figure of a rhinoceros was no longer able to count it ...

Antoine Thieu the Elder or...

This clock is a very characteristic example of the Rococo style with its attraction to the exotic, which manifested itself both in the choice of an outlandish animal for the central figure, and in the appeal to Chinese motifs - the art of chinoiserie. The name is on the dial famous master Antoine Thiout the Elder (Thiout Laine, 1692-1767) - the author of perhaps the first fundamental work on the theory and practice of watchmaking: this treatise was published in Paris under the patronage of the Royal Academy of Sciences in 1741.

In the catalog of the exhibition "Western European Clocks of the 16th-19th Centuries from the Hermitage Collection", held in 1971, the clock with the figure of a rhinoceros is dated to the middle of the 18th century. Note that until that time, the woodcut "Rhinoceros", performed by Albrecht Dürer in 1515, was considered the most reliable image of a rhinoceros; the degree of its reliability can be judged by the fact that on his board the great engraver provided the rhinoceros with an additional horn on the back of the neck. The same is true of the rhinoceros that adorns the watch with music box, performed by the Parisian master Jacques Gerome Gudin (Jacques Gerome Gudin) around 1745.

The Hermitage rhinoceros does not have a curious horn on the scruff of the neck. This circumstance seems to provide some starting point for dating: the first acquaintance of Europeans with a live rhinoceros took place in 1749, when it was presented to the Parisian public and the royal court at Versailles.

This suggests that the Hermitage clock was made no earlier than 1749 and no later than 1767, when A. Tiu the Elder died...

However, such a conclusion would be premature.

How the rhinoceros rejuvenated

A clock with a figure of a rhinoceros stands on the fireplace in the Small (White) Dining Room Winter Palace, adjacent to the Malachite Hall. They were erected in this place during the reconstruction undertaken in 1894, when the interior of the Small Dining Room, designed by A.P. Bryullov in the "Pompeian" vein, was destroyed, and the hall received a new design in the spirit of rococo, designed by the architect A.F. Krasovsky.

The most experienced restorer Valentin Molotkov, senior researcher at the Hermitage Laboratory for the Scientific Restoration of Clocks and musical mechanisms, I am convinced that the clock with the figure of a rhinoceros is not much older than the interior, which they decorate with themselves.

"A detailed study of the case and mechanism of this watch allows us to assert, - Valentin Alekseevich states, - that they were made in the third quarter of 19th century. So, the dial bearing the name of A. Tiu the Elder is covered with industrial enamel, which appeared only in the 19th century, and the numbers on it are marked with black paint, while in the 18th century black enamel was used for this, which had a high relief. Note that the letters "R" and "A" (abbreviated back and forth) appeared on the dials no earlier than the middle of the 19th century. Not earlier than this time, the mechanism was also made; it is enclosed in a case assembled from gilded parts cast according to heterogeneous models, and the metal of these parts has a dense mass, characteristic of high-temperature industrial casting. As for the figure of the rhinoceros, there are clearly visible traces of fitting to the gilded details that articulate with it ... To be fair, I note, - adds V.A. Molotkov - what are the names famous masters exhibited their imitators all the time ... "

Curator of the Artistic Bronze Collection of the Department of Western European applied arts Anna Geiko agreed with the restorer's arguments. "The clock with the figure of a rhinoceros is made in the style of historicism, the leading retrospective direction of arts and crafts of the second half of XIX V. The artistic elements used in the composition of the watch are clearly associated with the art of Rococo, with the 18th century, but they are already made at a different technical level. Modern technological research makes it possible to radically change the attribution of an object or clarify inventory data, as happened in the case of the mantel clock from the White Dining Room," Anna Gennadievna noted.

So the watch with the figure of a rhinoceros looked younger by more than a century.

"The clock is now ours!"

When the arrest of members of the Provisional Government was recognized by the Bolsheviks as a historical milestone in the collapse of the "old" and the beginning of the construction of "our new" world, a need arose for monuments and epic.

In 1927 Vladimir Mayakovsky created famous poem"Good!", dedicated to the tenth anniversary of the October Revolution. A special symbolic meaning in the poem is the motive of the revolutionaries gaining power over time:

Some confused son of a bitch
And above him is a Putilovets - more tender than dad:
"You, boy, lay out stolen watch -
The clock is now ours!"
................................
And in this silence rolled to your heart's content
Bass, strengthened over the yards of the yard:
"Which are temporary? Get off!
Your time is up."

But the idea of ​​the clock as a symbol of the time conquered by the revolution, apparently, became a commonplace long before Mayakovsky. Back in 1920, the clock with the figure of a rhinoceros from the Small (White) dining room of the Winter Palace was turned into the most important monument to the October events: they were transferred to the Museum of the Revolution, and the hands were stopped at the conditional moment of the overthrow of the Provisional Government.

In 1925, a Tour Bureau was established in the Hermitage: the Hermitage was to become a stronghold of the Marxist-Leninist ideology in the field of culture and art. In the same year, the clock from the Small Dining Room returned to its place. Later, the marble memorial plaque mentioned above appeared on the mantelpiece next to them, which is still there, although the pathos of the text inscribed on it causes a slight smile today.

P.S."The revolution, like Saturn, devours its children. Be careful, the gods are thirsty," exclaimed, ascending the scaffold, one of the leaders of the Girondins, Pierre Vergneau. In 1930, the author of the poem "Good!" committed suicide. Twenty years after the arrest of the Provisional Government, on October 12, 1937, Vladimir Antonov-Ovseenko was arrested and shot on February 10, 1938.

IN ancient mythology Saturn served as the embodiment of Time. In the Small Dining Room of the Winter Palace, Time is represented by a clock with a figure of a rhinoceros, stopped in a presumptuous attempt to separate the past from the future.

The first clock appeared in Russia in the 16th century. Mass production of products began at the beginning of the 19th century in Switzerland and France. Antique watches from these countries were the first to appear on the Russian market.

Vintage wall clock

There are many antique mechanisms on the modern market. There are collectors who collect rare specimens with a rich history behind them. Some see it as a way to invest money. They are also purchased for interior decoration. Many of them are considered works of art. Collection items can be divided into several groups:

1. Wrist.
2. Pocket.
3. Wall.
4. Floor.
5. Console.
6. Carriage.
7. Fireplace.

1) The first mention of a wristwatch dates back to 1809. The Parisian jeweler made a special order for Josephine, Napoleon's wife. He created two bracelets with precious stones and pearls. A clock was attached to one, and a calendar to the other.

Mechanisms with bracelets since 1850 have become widespread in France. Diamond-studded wrist accessories have been manufactured by Cartier since 1888. Products were fixed on a gold bracelet.

2) In the 18th century, pocket items became popular. The first copy was created by Christian Huygens. It was based on a spindle mechanism. Master Clement replaced this system with a hook system, and later with an anchor system. Egg-shaped pocket items were created in Russia by Kulibin.

The accessory has gained popularity among men. Pockets were cut especially for watches. There were copies on the Breguet chain, which began to be called by the name of the manufacturer. Antique clocks with a fight differed in accuracy. They were fastened with a chain to a button, and the other end was attached to the watch.

If you look at pictures of products of that time, the body is made of the following materials:

• silver;
• enamels;
• gold.

3) Vintage items never go out of style. They look good in living rooms, libraries. Wall Clock with a fight are pendulum or balancing. Pendulum products are installed motionless, since the mechanism of operation is based on vibrations.

The first wall copies appeared at the end of the 16th century. It has been observed that the accuracy of the mechanisms depends on the length and weight of the pendulum. German-made products were distinguished by accuracy. Frederich Maute Schwenningen is a major manufacturer of wall mechanisms. It was founded in 1876. Well-known German companies that produced wall products in late XIX and the beginning of the 20th century:

1. Gustav Becker.
2. Zentra.
3. Ridgeway.
4. Hermle.

4) Floor specimens of the 17th century were made of mahogany and ivory. Later, walnut and oak were used. The design of the product consisted of a pedestal, a cabinet where weights and a pendulum are located, and an upper compartment. In the 18th century there was a flourishing of English floor products.

Vintage grandfather clock

19th century clocks with painted dials are sought after by collectors. Such copies were produced for a short time. It was believed that the quality of the painted ones is inferior to the brass ones. The manufacturing time of outdoor products is determined by the features of the dial.

5) Console clocks appeared in the 17th century. They were wooden, cast, porcelain, with precious stones.

6) The carriage clock was meant for travel, so it had carrying handles and a case. The height of such products was no more than 30 cm.

7) The mantel clock was the decoration of the living room. They confirmed the status of the owner of the dwelling. First appeared in mid-eighteenth century in France and then in England. Such instances are considered desktop items. They were performed in the Rococo and Baroque styles on the themes:

• biblical stories;
• ancient mythology.

The rarest antique clocks are copies of the XV-XVII century.

English fireplace objects of the 19th century were made of mahogany and oak. They decorated classrooms and libraries. In the middle of the 19th century, sets came into fashion: next to the fireplace mechanisms, objects with paired ornaments were placed.

Collectibles have been around since the advent of portable mechanisms. When choosing antique products, they are guided by the following parameters:

• the complexity of the mechanism;
• master's name.

An old clock in the house is an indicator of prosperity, and their acquisition is a profitable investment. Museum workers pay attention to the artistic level and value of objects.

Over time, the mechanisms of products became more complicated. There were copies with a chronograph, lunar calendar, indicating the days of the week.

Manufacturers

Collectors admire the products:

1. Pavel Bure.
2. Brothers Chuguevs.
3. Norton.
4. Breguet.
5. Blancpain.
6. Rolex.
7. Patek Philippe.
8. Omega.
9. Langin.
10. Oulisse Nardin.
11. Moser.
12. Winter.

Watch "Pavel Bure"

The firm "Pavel Bure" focused not only on high status, but also on the general population. They sold a wide variety of watches:

• chronographs;
• road builders;
• Wall Clock;
• gold repeaters and so on.

Products are no longer a luxury, but necessary subject. The Bure company was able to focus on customers. For wealthy clients, mechanisms were produced in gold and silver cases. Complicated - ordered in Switzerland.

Swiss copies

The country did not have natural resources, so the inhabitants created clocks. In an alpine country, one of the keywords is order. It was embodied in the mechanism.

The Swiss brand Blancpain was founded in 1735. The first wrist watches appeared at the beginning of the 20th century. Harwood were self-winding.

The rare self-winding Rolls was released a little later. They were wound up from the mechanism itself, which moved freely inside the case. These antique clocks are considered a rarity.

Auctions

Auctions sell products of the XIX-XX centuries. Their price is 5-10 thousand dollars. Floor and wall items cost more than 200 thousand. Ancient copies are rarely sold and are expensive. What affects the cost? Appraisers talk about the following factors:

• complexity;
• uniqueness;
• serviceability of the mechanism;
• manufacturer's name.

In 2016, at the auction in Switzerland, which took place on November 12-13, an antique wrist watch was sold for 11 million CHF - Patek Philippe ref. 1518. They are made of steel. Built-in chronograph with moon phases and perpetual calendar.

The estimated value of antiques was exceeded by 3 times. These are the most expensive watches ever sold at auction. Year of issue - 1941. A total of 281 such samples were made, but only 4 were made in steel. The rose gold watch (from this version) was sold at auction for CHF 1,474,000.

Rolex Daytona Paul Newman, released in 1968, was sold for 874 thousand CHF.

Caring for antiques

Ancient objects that have been living in the house for more than a year require care. Restoring old clocks is not easy. Repairing the mechanism is only a tenth of the job. It is much more difficult to return the object to its original form. Time and years destroy filigree patterns, curlicues.

The optimum temperature for antique items is 22–25 degrees. Humidity in the room should be 40-60%. The watch is not stored near a heat source. Collectors know that dirt is the enemy of antiques. Items are also protected from water. Only the master can eliminate the consequences.

The onset of the New Year is associated with the chimes. If in the house old collection, at 12 o'clock each mechanism will notify each in its own way. Vintage clock in the house - symbols family traditions. Items from past eras give respectability and individuality to the interior. You can buy these things only at auctions. If you buy a watch “from hand”, then be sure to check the product with a specialist.

Guriev M.

1. Clock today

Initially, mechanical watches were created as a device for measuring time. The first of them, tower clocks, and then their smaller version - interior clocks, were open structures. Since miniature movements were more sensitive to dust, they began to be covered with a case, and the case (body) was decorated. In this form, they have survived to this day. Today, mechanical watches are gradually disappearing from life, being replaced by quartz watches, which are more accurate, cheaper and more convenient. Moreover, watches are less and less common as an independent object, moving to the screens of mobile phones, computers and TVs. Accordingly, the attitude towards them also changes. If in the 17th century a watch was a royal curiosity, in the 18th century it was a luxury item, in the 19th century it was a functional interior decoration, but today it is a banal, many-sided, purely utilitarian and rather cheap part. Everyday life. Such a perception is projected, in general, onto antique watches, so they are expected to have the same accuracy, reliability, and unpretentiousness. Which, of course, is not true. Mechanical watches, and vintage ones in particular, require attention and respect, as well as specific knowledge and skills in handling them. If this is not the case, the clock will stop, and for a long time.

Many young people today simply did not hear the clock ticking and striking. Therefore, the issues of their proper storage, restoration and exposure become even more relevant.

2. Clock as a museum object

The task of an art museum, in our understanding, is to educate people on the best examples of human culture. For future generations, the museum preserves and studies its exhibits, for contemporaries - shows and comments on them. The first group of questions is mainly dealt with by the custodians. For them, one of the main tasks is to preserve the object, and first of all from the visitor, who, at times, treats the exhibits barbarously. In this sense, it would be best to simply close the museum. Almost a diametrical position is occupied by employees associated with the reception of visitors. For them, attractiveness is paramount. museum expositions for the public, in particular, to show as many objects as possible, including mechanical watches. In this confrontation

there is a significant constructive moment: the need to constantly comprehend and justify the decisions made.

In museums, watches are treated differently, since this is a border object, at the same time a monument of both artistic and technical culture. The best artists and sculptors of their time participated in the manufacture of watch cases, the latest achievements of science and technology were used in the designs of mechanisms. Accordingly, in art museums, the focus is on the external design of watches; in technical museums, the emphasis is on the features of the mechanisms; V historical museums watches are considered as witnesses of certain eras or specific events.

The peculiarity of the watch is that it is practically the only type museum exhibit, which has a complex and highly organized internal structure, moves and sounds independently. And a living being, including a person, tends to notice movement out of the corner of his eye, and turn around at the sound. This is how the first impulse of movement towards the object is formed, which is especially strong in the case of musical and animated clocks (when the Peacock clock is wound up, the audience instantly gathers around the cage with the clock). That is, a working, ticking, ringing clock increases the attractiveness of the museum. Especially for children. And children are our future. If a museum is not interesting for a child today, he will not bring his children here tomorrow - that's all! The chain will be interrupted, why and for whom then to store and study all this?

Working clocks bring life to museum interiors, give them a new dimension, a sound accent, and are in constant, sometimes unconscious, dialogue with a person. They are a bridge connecting with the previous owners of this house: we hear the same sounds. If the clock is stopped, this is a sign of trouble: someone in the house has died. In addition, a stopped watch, with lost decorative elements, alien hands, broken dials, gives rise to a feeling of props, an underlying falsehood of what is happening: there should not be broken watches in the royal collection!

3. Restoration

There is an opinion that watches will last better if they are not wound. Yes, the operation of the watch leads to wear and tear. Friction pairs wear out (axle pins and support holes in the boards, descent pallets, combat pins), the mainsprings and pendulum suspensions break. But restorers have long since learned to fix these breakdowns without any damage to the watch. At the same time, a high-quality mechanism with proper maintenance can work for decades without major repairs. And the harm, much greater than continuous operation, is caused by a careless attitude towards them, illiterate maintenance, unprofessional restoration.

Features of our history are reflected in the state of clocks in museums. There are cases of incorrect assembly of cases, loss or replacement of entire mechanisms, broken enamel dials, no decorative elements cases, pendulums, bells, arrows, glasses and caps, clockwork keys. That is, the field of activity of the restorer is almost boundless. But professional restoration is expensive and difficult to access. Therefore, some amateur is often invited, who, for a nominal fee, or even simply “out of love for art”, actually cripple a thing. After all, even if he is a watchmaker, this is not enough: a watchmaker-repairman restores only the function. Form and originality of details, artistic image hours are secondary to him. With such a repair, information is skipped (for example, inscriptions on springs and boards), original parts are lost. The watchmaker is not to blame, he was taught that way. And the keeper is not to blame, because cannot fully appreciate the quality of the work. And the result is disastrous.

That is, the fears of the curators are justified - as with any kind of museum exhibit, unprofessional restoration spoils the thing.

The features of clock restoration in a museum are determined, on the one hand, by the specifics of the clock as a museum exhibit, and on the other hand, by general ideas about the goals and objectives of the museum, and the resulting goals and objectives of restoration. What should be considered the goal of restoring such an object as a mechanical clock, what are the criteria for evaluating the results of a restorer's work? Let's turn to definitions.

Restoration (from late Latin restauratio - restoration), restoration, restoration of something in its original (or close to original) form (architectural monuments, works of art, sound recordings, film and photo documents, manuscripts, etc.).

2001 "Great Russian Encyclopedia"

Restoration is an activity undertaken to make a destroyed or damaged object intelligible, sacrificing minimally its aesthetic and historical integrity.

Code of Ethics for the ICOM Conservation Committee

Given the above, as the goal of watch restoration, and the main criterion for evaluating its results, it is proposed increasing the level of preservation and artistic value exhibit. To do this, the restoration process should include:

1. a comprehensive historical and technical study of the exhibit,

2. obligatory preservation of original parts and details,

3. conservation work, that is, a set of measures aimed at stopping the destruction of the exhibit,

4. possibly more complete, scientifically substantiated replacement of losses,

5. clear marking of newly manufactured parts,

6. fixing the state change in the relevant documents,

7. drawing up a detailed description of the exhibit and the work done,

8. issuance of recommendations for maintenance and exposure. Separately - about the buildings. Watch cases are, as a rule, prefabricated, multi-element structures. Individual details are lost over time. And if we work in art museum, and we want to convey to the viewer the artistic image of the object, and not the sad evidence of a careless attitude towards it, it makes sense to try to make a complete reconstruction of the losses. The simplest tasks are also possible here, for example, making a missing leg by copying a preserved one; more complex ones are also possible when it comes to recreating lost elements according to stylistic analogues. The latter option is more time-consuming, complex and vulnerable to criticism, but still a museum should not be a cemetery! And an object with losses (we do not list lost legs, onlays, finials, etc. on the label) deceives the viewer more than a restored one and provided with a corresponding label. That is, the restoration increases the level of reliability and artistic value of the exhibit, increases its attractiveness as an object of permanent and temporary exhibitions, its commercial value. The exhibit is given more attention, respect and care, so it is better preserved.

It should be remembered that any touch to the subject is already an interference. That is, the requirements for compliance with the principles of restoration (the reversibility of restoration intervention, the validity of replenishing losses, the full documentation of the changes made) should be meaningful and not drive the restorer into a corner.

Professional restoration includes differentiated approach to each object. The measure of intervention is determined individually, after a comprehensive study of the exhibit, and is agreed with the curator and the restoration commission. The range can be wide - from purely conservation measures aimed at fixing the current state of the object and preventing its further destruction, to reconstructing a large amount of losses and, in special occasions, making full copies. The issue of setting the watch to move is decided individually: in the general case, this does not make sense for wrist and pocket watches.

Watches have always been a high-tech product, in the manufacture of which dozens of different specialists could participate: artists, engineers, technologists, artisans. The same specialists are needed for restoration. In order for the appearance of the newly manufactured parts to match the original ones, the restorer must work according to the technologies corresponding to the author's ones. He must combine the knowledge of an art critic and the qualifications of a watchmaker, understand the design features of mechanisms and the design of watch cases. different countries and epochs. Obviously, such a set of requirements is excessive for one person (in practice, this means that the one who takes up this work alone will either do the part in which he is competent, or cheat). The practical way out is to work in a friendly team, the collective knowledge of which covers all issues, using cooperation.

With cooperation and supply - separate problems. In connection with the reduction in the production of mechanical watches, the assortment is reduced and the quality of spare parts and materials is falling. It is difficult to get non-standard watch springs, bells, glasses for dials. Serious firms with a good production base and experienced staff are not profitable small museum orders. Small firms are not always able to provide decent quality, and are reluctant to enter into contracts for one-time orders. Practically the only way out is personal contacts, enthusiasts, cash payment with the direct executor.

An independent issue is personnel training. Earlier, for example, in England of the eighteenth century, the training of a watchmaker took 7 years, and then for another two years he went as an apprentice. This once again speaks of the large amount of knowledge and practical experience necessary to master the profession. Modern foreign watch schools (there are none in Russia) give a good vocational training, but for the restorer this can only serve as a technical basis. And further education, apparently, can take the form of an internship in a serious restoration workshop. At the same time, the trainee should receive the appropriate historical and artistic knowledge and technological skills, but most importantly, he should develop a respectful attitude towards the object and the ability to work with documents (“get used to” the clock). The only institution that trains watch restorers is West Dean College in England (which also recommends, upon completion, an internship in a restoration shop).

There are few Russian watches in museums, mainly the works of watchmakers from France, England, Germany. The more important contacts with foreign colleagues - they know their watches better. Modern means connections (such as Email), which allow the transmission of both text, and image, and sound, can contribute to effective interaction (for this, as well as for reading special literature and magazines, and publishing your articles, you need to know foreign languages). The emergence of a single international organization capable of organizing such cooperation, creating a single and accessible database on watches, would allow raising watch restoration to a qualitatively new level - an international watch restoration center. The task of such a center is to create an opportunity to get acquainted with analogues of watches being restored where they are stored, as well as to improve the restoration methodology by establishing contacts between watch schools, restoration workshops, combining the knowledge and experience of specialists from different countries.

4. Exposure

The specificity of the watch manifests itself in issues related to their exposure. The experience of working in the museum allowed us to form a number of requirements and wishes that should be taken into account when installing on the exposition:

The clock must be installed (hung) on ​​a stable, reliable base. For floor or console clocks, a safety mount to the wall should be provided.

It is desirable to restore the cases that protected the watch from dust and outside interference. Glass caps are usually used: solid ones for small watches, composite ones with a bronze frame and a lockable front door - for large ones. Under the hood there should be a wooden stand with a groove or step for orienting the glass. To prevent the glass cap from scratching the stand, protective paper is glued to its lower edge.

If the clock has a fight or music, it is necessary to provide appropriate holes in the stand for the passage of sound. If necessary, sound amplification is possible.

Lighting, preferably, should be general plus frontal, on the dial and visible moving parts (pendulums, second hands, animation).

If the watch has an interesting back side (for example, engraved platinum), it is desirable to organize a circular view, or put it in front of a mirror (but not close), and organize the lighting accordingly.

A pocket watch is a difficult object to exhibit. By design, they should be considered from different angles. I would like to show the dial, and the back cover, and the mechanism. To do this, the clock can be hung open on a rotating stand, or placed above a mirror (with a gap of 3-4 cm), or in front of a mirror angle (to see from two sides), and show as close as possible (at eye level).

For watches with music or animation, you must use a video recording of their work. It may be accompanied by historical and artistic commentary, showing interesting details hours, features of the work that the visitor would not otherwise see.

5. Service

A working watch, like any working mechanism, needs maintenance. This concept includes:

Bypass (usually weekly) and watch winding. In this case, as a rule, a visual control of the state is carried out, the progress, the calendar are corrected, and the transfer to summer (winter) time is carried out;

Preventive repair of the mechanism - once every 3-5 years, depending on the condition (or in case of an emergency, for example, when a spring breaks). The work includes disassembling the mechanism, identifying defects and losses, correcting them, cleaning, assembling, lubricating and putting on the move.

For watches with musical devices, a separate stage is tuning (intonation). The frequency depends on the characteristics of a particular device. For example, for mechanical organs, this can be done twice a year.

6. Storage

If the watch is sent to storage after restoration, the mechanism must be mothballed. This means:

All springs should be completely dissolved;

The pendulum must be fixed. If the watch has a locking device, use it. If the pendulum is removable, remove it and wrap it up and store it together with the winding keys and case keys, if any.

It is advisable to completely cover the watch from dust. In particular, this applies to individual mechanisms, skeleton clocks, clocks with lost glass caps.

It should be noted that today the issue of storing watch movements (located in a case or stored separately) has not been fully resolved: the custodians of various objects of fine art (bronze, porcelain, furniture, etc.) are not specialists in watch mechanics. Taking into account the size and quality of the Hermitage collection of clocks, one comes to the conclusion that it would be expedient to separate watch mechanisms for independent storage. This does not imply their territorial movement, but it allows better solving the issues of storage, restoration and operation. And also to start creating a single catalog - a database of watch movements. As it develops, it can be supplemented with information about cases, dials and watchmakers.

This will help to reveal the potential of the collection of watches in the field of the history of technology (on the example of watch mechanisms - the prototype of all subsequent mechanisms, up to computers), as part of a universal culture that develops along with artistic culture and supports it. Today, knowledge about the mechanisms gained during the restoration of watches remains with the restorer. But in many watches, the mechanisms are no less interesting than the cases. Hence the idea of ​​an independent watch exhibition, showing the development and diversity of styles, designs and technologies, the role and place of watches in the history of mankind. In this case, there is no need to take the watch from the exposition. But to organize an exhibition, taking into account the specifics of the subject, should be using video recordings, multimedia, computer animation. With a popular but tech-savvy level of presentation, it would attract a new layer of visitors interested in technology - and this most of men.

7. Conclusion

1. The specificity of watches, as a monument of both artistic and technical culture, having a complex multi-component structure, moving and sounding, determines the specifics of the approach to restoration, display and storage.

2. The variety of types of mechanisms, applied technologies, options for designing cases makes it necessary to actively collect information on these issues, establish contacts with the curators of other museums, antique dealers, watchmakers, restorers of various specialties.

3. Working hours require constant attention and regular competent maintenance, but significantly increase the attractiveness of the museum.

Storage mode - a set of conditions necessary to ensure the safety of the museum collection. Includes temperature and humidity regime, light regime, measures to protect against air pollutants, biological regime, measures to protect against mechanical damage; protection of funds in extreme situations.

Temperature and humidity conditions . Temperature and humidity are factors that can significantly affect the acceleration of the aging of objects. The strength of this effect depends on the material from which the object is made; the safety of the item at the time of inclusion in the collection; features of the environment from which the object was removed during the acquisition process.

Organic materials (wood, fabric, leather, paper) are hygroscopic, they deteriorate both at high and low humidity: they deform, chemically change, etc. High humidity is dangerous for metals, glass. Temperature is also an important factor in the preservation of items: tint° below + 13° C falls ill with "tin plague", i.e. it undergoes irreversible chemical changes. Products made from waxt° above + 25° C irreversibly deformed.

Temperature and humidity are considered in combination, since they are actually interconnected (remember the pressure formula from school course physics). To resolve the issue of a suitable temperature and humidity regime for a given object, it is necessary to take into account not only the material from which the objects are made, but also their device, combination of materials, structure and safety. For example, storing paintings stretched on a stretcher without crosses and bevels in high humidity conditions is more dangerous than paintings whose stretchers have crosses and bevels, because. the latter are less susceptible to deformation. The presence of cracks, chips enhances the negative effects of temperature and humidity. It is also important to take into account the environment from which the object was taken (this applies to archaeological collections). A sharp change in the environment of existence of metals, wood, glass, colored stone can lead to a sharp aging and destruction of objects. Glass, metal recovered during archaeological work should be stored at low humidity; tree - with increased. In domestic museology, criteria have been developed for optimal temperature and humidity for different groups of materials (Table 3.1).

Table 3.1

Criteria for optimal temperature and humidity for different groups of materials

Material (material group)	temperature (in° WITH)	Humidity (in %)
Metals	18 – +20	up to 50
Glass, enamel, ceramics	12 – +20	55–65

The end of the table. 3.1

ornamental stones	15 – +18	50–55
Tree	15 – +18	50–60
Textile	15 – +18	55–65
Leather, parchment, fur	16 – +18	50–60
Bone, horn, turtle	14 – +15	55–60
Paper	17 – +19	50–55
Oil painting	12 – +18	60–70
Black and white photography		40–50
Color photography		40–50

Compliance with these conditions is possible only with separate storage of items made from different groups of materials. Shared storage uses complex mode. Complex mode indicators: temperature + 18° WITH (± 1 ° C), humidity - 55% (± 5%) .

In foreign museology, somewhat different norms have been adopted. In the work of B. and G.D. Lords "Management in Museum Affairs" for a temperate climate recommended a relative humidity of 50% (± 3%), with an acceptable temperature change during the year (gradual, no more than 0.5° C per month) in winter - 20-21° C, in summer - 21–24° C. It is recognized, however, that maintaining such a regime is most easily achieved in a temperate maritime climate in specially constructed new buildings with modern air conditioning. In a continental climate and in old buildings used as museums, compliance with this standard is recognized as difficult. In this case, the recommended humidity parameters are from 55% in summer to 40% in winter (it is recommended to reduce humidity by 5% every spring and autumn). Separate groups are metal and paper (“non-stitched paper sheets”), which should be stored at a humidity of less than 40%; and objects coming from the tropics and having a high hygroscopicity, for which the humidity parameters can reach 65%. It is noted that according to British standards for storage of unstapled paper, the recommended temperature ranges from 13-18° C at a humidity of 55–65%. The authors point out that in Lately requirements in UK museums are becoming less stringent. This is due to the energy saving policy. .

The museum should have devices that record the temperature and humidity conditions. Their indicators should, in the practice of domestic museology, be filmed twice a day and recorded in a special journal.

The most reliable way to ensure the temperature and humidity regime is air conditioning and insulation of premises from the effects of the external environment (air and waterproofing), because. in almost any type of climate, there are seasonal changes in temperature and humidity. It is especially important to install air conditioners in the halls with expositions, because in these cases without air conditioners to ensure compliance with the temperature and humidity regime during the storage of museum items (on open access) is very difficult: the flow of visitors leads to an increase in humidity and temperature. In the absence of air conditioners, other means are used: ventilation, humidifiers (vessels with an aqueous solution of potassium permanganate) in case of low humidity, adsorbents (silica gel, woolen cloth) in case of high humidity.

Air pollution protection. Dust, gases, soot, soot and other air pollutants - important factors environment affecting the preservation of museum objects. This is especially true for areas with a high density of traffic flows, the presence of industrial facilities, etc.

Sulfur dioxide, soot, soot are formed during combustion. Sulfur dioxide, dissolving in water contained in the air, forms sulfurous acid, and it turns into sulfuric acid as a result of subsequent chemical reactions. The impact of sulfuric acid is one of the most aggressive. A particular danger from this factor is observed in rooms with high humidity.

Soot, soot, dust work as natural adsorbents (attract moisture to themselves) and trap harmful gases that penetrate into the pores and natural damage to wood, fabrics, paper, paint layer, which activates chemical reactions. Dust is also an excellent breeding ground for biological pests.

To protect items from air pollutants, it is also necessary to install air conditioners and filters, carry out mechanical removal of dust, dirt, and keep items in individual packaging (cases, folders, cases, etc.). When installing air conditioners and filters, it is best to use multi-stage air purification systems. Filters are best installed from activated charcoal. The use of electric filters for museums is not recommended, because they ozonize the air, and ozone is harmful to museum collections. The preliminary filter should ensure air purification by 25–30%, the intermediate filter by 40–85%, and the last filter by 90–95%. This set of filters is positioned so that both outdoor and recirculated (internal) air flows pass through it. . Individual packaging of items also contributes to protection against dust: covers, cases, folders.

Light mode . Its main goal is to regulate the access of light and ultraviolet rays to museum objects. Light can cause physical and photochemical changes. The degree of exposure to light on an object depends on the material from which the object is made, whether the object is artificially painted or has a natural color, the light and color fastness of the paints used for coloring, the duration and intensity of exposure to light radiation (Fig. 64).

By light fastness materials are divided into 3 groups:

1) with high light resistance (low light sensitivity): metals, non-colored stone, gypsum, unglazed ceramics, colorless glass, undyed synthetic fabric (or dyed with some synthetic dyes), etc .;

2) with medium light fastness (medium light sensitivity): bone, leather, fur, undyed and unbleached natural fabrics, dyed synthetic fabric, wood, glazed ceramics, enamel, oil and tempera painting, etc.;

3) with low light fastness (high light sensitivity): photography is mainly in color, and among color photographs, especially those made using photographic equipmentPolaroid”, watercolor, pastel, paper, bleached and dyed natural fabric (especially if the dye is natural).

Rice. 64. Pile carpet "Zoology". Author L. Kerimov. Located in the State
Museum of Azerbaijani Carpet and Folk Applied Arts (Baku, Azerbaijan)

The darker the object, the higher its ability to absorb light rays, and, consequently, to be exposed to light. As for dyes, the light fastness standards depend not only on the color, but also on the type of paint: oil, watercolor, gouache, tempera, etc., as well as on impurities (for each manufacturer, as well as for artists who make paints on their own, these impurities). A modern manufacturer, as a rule, indicates these indicators with a * sign (* - low, ** - medium, *** - high light fastness). For dyes whose manufacturer is unknown or data on light fastness are not known, this issue can be resolved with the help of an examination.

Items with high lightfastness require only protection from direct sunlight. The level of illumination for them should not exceed 150 lux. This is due to the danger of increased exposure not only to light, but also ultraviolet radiation . Medium-light resistant materials require a special regime: dimming or complete blackout. So, the tree basically requires darkening, therefore it is recommended to wear it in covers. Oil and tempera painting cannot be without light, therefore they are not covered with covers (with a prolonged lack of light, oil and tempera darken). White fur, bone also require lighting, as they turn yellow in the dark. The level of illumination for them should not exceed 75 lux. Highly photosensitive (with low light fastness) items are recommended to be stored in a shaded room in equipment protected from light. The norm of illumination in domestic museology for highly light-sensitive materials is from 50 lux to 75 lux. There are situations when highly light-sensitive objects must be stored in complete isolation from light (in these cases, only closed, stock storage is recommended for the object, and it is better to place a copy in an exposure, especially a long one) (Fig. 65).

Rice. 65. Museumd’ Orsay(Paris, France). exposition hall,
author of the project G. Aulenti

In foreign museology, standards are developed, as a rule, by the museums themselves. For photosensitive objects, low illumination is recommended: 50 lux; for medium light-resistant - 150-200 lux; and highly light-resistant objects are said to withstand illumination up to and including 300 lux. At the same time, it sets contrast ratio norms , which are designed to indicate the difference between the most brightly lit and the least lit surfaces of an object. The contrast ratio is assumed to be 6:1. Norms of ultraviolet radiation vary up to 75 microwatts per lumen (foreign museology is in the process of reducing the allowable level of ultraviolet radiation to 10 microwatts per lumen, which is associated with the introduction of new ultraviolet filters built into fluorescent lamps, as well as new types of film and laminate for window glass and exposition equipment). When storing in the exposure, it is important not only to determine the parameters of light, ultraviolet radiation, the norms of the contrast ratio, but also the duration of exposure. Photosensitive objects are advised to be removed from exposure from time to time in order to reduce the total number of hours during which they are exposed to these factors. For photosensitive exhibits, the illumination parameters are determined at 60,000–120,000 lux-hours per year .

biological regime provides protection against biological pests: mold, fungi, insects, rodents. Fungus, mold, insect larvae multiply intensively in case of violation of the temperature and humidity regime, dusting of objects. The danger comes from new arrivals, as well. they may be contaminated, and, therefore, before being placed in the funds, the item must not only be properly decorated, but also checked for its safety for other items.

For example, mold reproduces at a humidity of 70-75% or more and a temperature of +20 - +25° C. It attacks inorganic materials such as ceramics. To prevent mold, it is required to observe the temperature and humidity conditions and treat the equipment with a 2% alcohol solution of formaldehyde.

Insects such as grinders, woodworms, leather beetles, moths, pretenders, sugar silverfish, houseflies and their larvae damage, first of all, organic materials (paper, wood, watercolor (natural honey is used in good watercolor), leather, parchment, etc. .d.). To prevent the appearance of these pests, it is also important to observe the temperature and humidity conditions, the air regime. Previously, to combat these pests, they used mainly gas treatment, insecticides, and fumigation of new arrivals. This requires the presence of pest control chambers and special isolators and is still associated with a risk to personnel and possible exposure to poisons on the exhibits themselves. Therefore, in many museums, in accordance with the new technical capabilities, either oxygen-free chambers are being built (where treatment with nitric oxide is carried out), or old pest control chambers are being converted into such chambers. Another non-toxic method was also invented: in a special chamber, objects are heated at 52° C and constant relative humidity of the processed object and the environment .

Protection against mechanical damage - involves special handling of museum objects, which prevents their damage or loss. This is especially important in the direct work of researchers with objects. In this case, they are required to wash and dry their hands without fail in order to eliminate contact with the object of fat and moisture; use unbleached cotton gloves when working with all items, except for those storage units in which fibers can get stuck (they can subsequently serve as moisture absorbents, which is also dangerous). Such items include carved lacquerware, wood carvings, and the like. Fingerprints on metals and paper are removed only with damage to the texture of the object. The object should be taken by its strong parts: separate sheets of paper diagonally - by the corners, vessels - by the necks (in the narrowest place), but in no case by the handles, spouts, etc. (Fig. 66)

Rice. 66. Items from the collection of modern porcelain Zagorsky
historical and artistic reserve (Sergiev Posad, RF)

Numismatic materials, products made of precious stones and metals are not taken by hand, but only with special tweezers, because. Otherwise, the item may be damaged. Pictures are taken only by the stretcher.

In our opinion, museums should strive to limit "communication" (especially touching with hands)coriginal even for researchers: to recommend the use of electronic catalogs, scanned copies (a phenomenon common in foreign museum practice, but difficult to take root in domestic).

Special requirements apply to museum transport used both for internal movement of objects, and external. Fasteners, depreciation softeners, anti-shock and other coatings and mechanisms should be provided here. When transporting, it is necessary to choose the right packaging, containers for transportation, follow the rules for packing items (see: Storage system). The decision on the possibility of transportation in domestic practice is made by the museum's restoration council.

Protection in emergency (extreme) situations involves the development of measures for fire safety, monitoring of water supply and heating systems, maintaining good condition museum building, as well as the development of action plans in emergency situations, equipping museum premises with fire-fighting equipment, automatic fire extinguishing systems, fire and burglar alarms; the regime of protection against theft and other encroachments on the property of museums.

On the windows of the basement, on the windows of the 1st floor (sometimes the last, if there is access to the museum building from the roofs of neighboring houses) metal horizontal blinds should be installed. Installation of gratings does not comply with modern fire safety standards, because. interferes with the normal work of firefighters in the event of a fire. Grilles that do not open or open only from the inside will not allow entry into the building through the first floor windows, which is especially dangerous for people and objects inside if collapsed beams, etc. block access through the doors.

It is obligatory to put the building on round-the-clock protection (police, non-departmental, civil or combined). Regulatory documents (in domestic practice - "Instructions for accounting and storage of museum valuables") determine the procedure for the delivery and acceptance of premises by the museum security and financially responsible custodians, the rules for storing keys, ice seals, seals, etc.

Also around the clock is fire supervision, supervision of electrical, plumbing and heating networks.

If the museum stores collections or individual items made of precious stones and metals, weapons, then special rooms are equipped for their storage. In exceptional cases, it is allowed to place such items in storage facilities, but certainly in fireproof cabinets, safes (Fig. 67).

Rice. 67. BraceletsX– XIcenturies Gold. State Museum
history of Armenia

Sergei Nikolaevich: Hello. This is the "Cultural Exchange" program on the Public Television of Russia. With you Sergey Nikolaevich. Today is our museum day. We will talk about what the museum means in our life today, what it can and should become tomorrow, what is its main wealth and decoration, and what we would like to get rid of right now. Our guest is the director State Museum Fine Arts named after Pushkin Marina Loshak.

Marina Loshak is a gallery owner, art manager, art critic, collector, museum worker. Born in Odessa. Graduated from Odessa Mechnikov State University with a degree in Classical Philology. While still a student, she worked at the Odessa State Literary Museum. In 1986 she moved to Moscow. IN different time headed the Moscow Art Center on Neglinnaya and the Museum and Exhibition Association "Manege". Founder of the gallery "Proun". Member of the expert council and jury of the Kandinsky Prize. On July 1, 2013 she was appointed director of the Pushkin State Museum of Fine Arts.

S.N.: Hello, Marina.

Marina Loshak: Hello.

S.N.: In those programs that I read about in preparation for our meeting, I really liked the name of one - it is called "Friend Exchange". I thought that somehow it rhymed with our "". And, of course, I would like to know in more detail what kind of friends you exchange, who these friends are. But before we move on to such a global and, of course, the most important topic of the Pushkin Museum, I would like to talk a little more about you, since you are a relatively new person in the museum community, despite the fact that you have several galleries behind you, and this large association "Manezh", from which, in fact, you came to Pushkin Museum. But I understand that you have a philological education, right?

M.L.: Yes.

S.N.: And at the same time, the museum was the first place of work?

M.L.: Yes.

S.N.: And what kind of museum was it?

M.L.: Literary.

S.N.: It was still in literature, right?

M.L.: Yes. Since I grew up in Odessa, it was the Odessa Literary Museum, which was just being built. And this, to some extent, determined, so to speak, the karma of my life absolutely, because all the places in which I worked are very different. And this is not accidental, because, as we know, there is nothing accidental.

S.N.: It doesn't happen in this life.

M.L.: In general, this is quite understandable. They were associated with my arrival at the time of construction, that is, the emergence of something new. There was not a single case when I would come to a place that already traditionally exists. No one. That is, I am so arranged, probably that I ...

S.N.: Your life, right?

M.L.: Yes. That I'm interested in starting and moving, I think so. It's just that I feel in place at the very moment when something begins.

S.N.: And this museum, the literary museum in Odessa - what was it like?

M.L.: It represented a dream of a literary museum in Odessa. He was absent. There was absolutely nothing. There was a fantastic director, an absolute adventurer (in the best sense of the word), a man from a picaresque novel, incredibly educated, an idealist and a cynic at the same time, a fantastic person, fantastic, who thought of what he would be, and as a result did everything. He received the best building in the city - the Gagarin Palace. Got money. Gathered a team of the youngest and most inexperienced people. I was still studying at the institute, when I came there, I was 19 years old. There was not a single exhibit, but there was only a desire to make it. And ten years later it was best museum years for the last five years, that is, for five years it has been the best museum in the country.

And it was maybe the best place in my life, because I could not appreciate it then. I worked as a researcher in the department, which was engaged in the most "delicious", in my opinion, period - the twenties, just the South Russian school. And during the year I went to Moscow 15-16 times and talked with Kataev, with Slavin, with the Ilf family, with Sasha Ilf (there were friends later), with Pirozhkova, Babel's wife, with all the legendary people.

S.N.: With all this circle of wonderful writers.

M.L.: And I still could not fully appreciate then what happiness and luck it was. Here we went. Actually, what I was doing then, I am doing now is to commute. This is the most important thing you can do - to trade in charm, drive, desire, saturation with this desire and receive, receive, receive exhibits. And as a result, an incredible collection of things was assembled (there was not a single piece of paper), which became a museum that is still open. Now, unfortunately, of course, he is in a completely different state. But when it opened, it was a bomb, as they say now. It was ten generally delightful years of life.

S.N.: Have you dedicated ten years?

M.L.: Ten years.

S.N.: This is a huge period.

M.L.: Yes many. Then we opened it. Then I still led excursions there, they came to me. It was big country. And since I like to talk, people from St. Petersburg, from Kyiv, from different places came to me specially, called by phone, signed up and came specially.

S.N.: And did you lead excursions?

M.L.: Yes, sure. Well, first we did, and then - excursions.

S.N.: It was necessary to show.

M.L.: That was very…

S.N.: What are your impressions from communicating with these classics? Soviet literature? First of all, honestly, I am interested in Valentin Petrovich Kataev.

M.L.: Certainly. Still would! He should be of interest to everyone in the first place, because he was absolutely unreal.

S.N.: Well, a part of this city, after all, it was very connected.

M.L.: Yes, he is a big part. He was a very old man then, completely elderly, absolutely alive, absolutely a man, absolutely, despite his age, that is, with all the reactions of a completely alive man, and speaking very well, with an incredible Odessan accent. Incredible! And when for the first time before that I watched pieces of the chronicle, where in the 50s he speaks as a functionary somewhere, at some kind of congress, without the slightest accent at all. Without the slightest! How can it be? I don't understand…

S.N.: And suddenly, already in these later years…

M.L.: Apparently, in old age, a person allowed himself to be himself.

S.N.: To be yourself.

Valentin Kataev spoke deliciously, as he wrote - tasty and good

M.L.: Be yourself, yes. And it was wonderful! Well, with such an accent! I never heard at all. I was born in an intelligent family, no one spoke with an accent there, in Odessa. And here it’s just a real one, like from books or from a movie, and a very charming accent. Nice low voice. He spoke deliciously, as he wrote - tasty and good.

S.N.: Ten years is a huge life. In general, if a person enters a museum, then he enters forever in fact. It's kind of a closed, closed system. Well, in any case, many examples can be given when people spent their lives there. Weren't you sorry to leave this museum, partly created by you?

M.L.: It's a pity. I was very sorry, I was very sorry ... In general, I really did not want to leave Odessa for Moscow. And I was completely happy there. I lived an amazing life, not at all provincial at all and filled only with fantastic experiences. I felt very good.

S.N.: There were family circumstances, as I understand it, right?

M.L.: Family, yes, so I had to go.

S.N.: I first heard your name in connection with the collection, it was some kind of completely new status and a new type of work - collecting a collection for SBS-Agro, there was such a bank.

M.L.: Yes. At first it was called "Capital".

S.N.: "Capital"?

M.L.: And before that, as soon as I moved to Moscow, I again worked in the museum.

S.N.: Did you work in a museum?

M.L.: Yes, I immediately came to the museum, it was the Mayakovsky Museum. And I came there precisely because it was undergoing reconstruction.

S.N.: Because it was literary?

M.L.: No.

S.N.: No?

M.L.: Only because he was getting reconstructed. And I worked there exactly as long as the reconstruction was going on, two years. And then new times came, the Stolichny bank arose.

S.N.: And what kind of collection did you collect for them?

M.L.: Collected ... It was not a collection, but it was a collection, because ...

S.N.: How do they differ?

M.L.: The collection combines things collected as if by some kind of homogeneous theme. A collection is several collections. There were several different collections, quite a bit of. There was a very good collection of antiquity, which Smolensky has now donated to the Pushkin Museum. We were advised just by the staff of the Pushkin Museum. The same Vladimir Petrovich Tolstikov, who heads the Antique Department now, he actually was a consultant to this collection. Now, this is probably him. Well, a collection of old Russian and Western European paintings. And a wonderful collection of Western European engravings and drawings, which is also now in the Pushkin Museum. And so on. There were many very good and important things, very different, which were collected in such blocks.

SN: But it was actually a private collection, right?

M.L.: Absolutely.

S.N.: And you were responsible for all directions, for everything there, right?

M.L.: I attracted just experts of one kind or another.

S.N.: Not being a specialist in some areas.

M.L.: Well, you can't be an expert in everything, of course. When we collected Western European engravings, it was Arkady Ippolitov.

S.N.: Was it like an investment or more like a cultural action?

M.L.: It wasn't an investment.

S.N.: No?

M.L.: It was an image story. At that time, few people were engaged in investments in the field of art.

S.N.: And I understood.

M.L.: Yes. Well, it's just that they didn't attach the importance that now, perhaps, people can already attach to it. It was, of course, an image story. These were very young institutions. "Capital" was one of the first five banks. I came there as the twelfth person, that is, it was the very beginning again.

SN: This story.

M.L.: It was all very interesting. History flowed through the body simply. It was all very interesting! But at the same time I was talking to those colleagues who... It was the time of corporate meetings, as new banks were springing up. They knew the importance of being socially attractive. And social attractiveness is associated with this kind of activity. They saw the example of Deutsche Bank. Deutsche Bank was generally a "star", everyone looked up to the German big banks.

S.N.: Well, it was some kind of simulation, role model, Yes?

M.L.: Model, yes. And actually I think that this is a very correct "star".

S.N.: Landmark.

M.L.: Yes, sure. And by no means English or American, namely German. And everyone tried, in general, to build some kind of public face, based on these understandings. I think it was the right time. There was a lot of charity and philanthropic steps, a variety of steps. And then, when the collection was more or less collected in some blocks, then we actually worked as the Ministry of Culture, as ROSIZO, because we showed this collection in the country. I took it to all the museums. Since then, I know all the museums very well. Well, to have an idea: 14-15 exhibitions a year.

S.N.: Throughout Russia?

M.L.: Throughout Russia, including Khabarovsk, Vladivostok, Blagoveshchensk, closed cities, Krasnoyarsk-26. That is, I was in incredible places, and everywhere it was. There were some favorite cities. We did exhibitions specifically for Omsk, I did the name of Vrubel. Four exhibitions dedicated to Vrubel, where there were 4,000 people a day. That is, it was generally a big, conscious work, which, on the one hand, helped the bank a lot, which was so big, there were many branches, and on the other hand, it was very much in demand by just people as a kind of example of cultural policy. Because the country did not have such opportunities, such money, and the bank could afford it. And I think that we now really lack this, such movements.

S.N .: But 1998 came ...

M.L.: Yes, it was a great year for me.

S.N.: Why was he so beautiful? Everyone remembers him fondly.

M.L.: And everything is inside us, you know. For me, it was wonderful, because in 1998 a gallery was opened, which was supposed to be the gallery of the Stolichny bank. But there was a crisis, and it was already hard for the bank. Nevertheless, everything was built, ready, and it opened. Another thing is that Smolensky continued, being a man of his word, to support and give money. Well, actually, we did not pay rent, we existed, we were paid a salary. Everything else was our business - we had to make exhibitions, find money for them, sponsors, and so on. And began new life Moscow Center for the Arts, which was a completely unique place. And it was also the opening of another window at that time, a new one.

S.N.: That is, your new stage?

M.L.: Yes.

S.N .: It was not construction, but it was actually construction ...

M.L.: Was. No, I was building a gallery.

S.N.: Did you build?

M.L.: I built, I answered, that is, I controlled as a person who gives a technical task, and everything that happens.

S.N.: What about the fate of this SBS-Agro collection? That is, part of it went to the Pushkin Museum?

M.L.: In Pushkin, yes.

S.N.: And the rest?

M.L.: I don't know, unfortunately.

S.N.: That is, you no longer tracked the fate of these things?

M.L.: Well, there was no such task.

S.N.: I understand that at this moment there are two Vashi galleries. One gallery is the "Rose of Azora", to which you had a direct relationship.

M.L.: Well, "Rose of Azora" was all the time. It's still 1988 when I still...

SN: Yes, she was one of the first.

M.L.: Yes, even before Smolensk. Actually, I can't say that I did it. It was just the beginning. I really wanted to make a place about what you love yourself. And then people came there who were engaged in this as a gallery. At first, Lena Yazykova and I were there for a little bit, and then Lyuba Shaks, who took care of her and is still doing it. And I am purely pampering and, as they say, knitting a scarf in the evening from ten to eleven.

S.N.: That is, it was some kind of parallel plot that did not change your life in any way?

M.L.: Generally, no.

S.N.: And the second gallery?

M.L.: And the second was part of my life, too milestone because when the story ended...

S.N.: History with the collection… with the collection.

M.L.: Not with the meeting, no, but with the Moscow Center for the Arts, which lasted five and a half years. And it was more than an important institution, in fact the only institution that cooperated with all museums. In general, it was a museum space, it was a non-profit museum space. We were the site of the Russian Museum, and we worked with the Russian all the time, with the Tretyakov Gallery. All provincial museums were our friends. In general, it was all done.

And then it closed, and it was necessary to think of something else. And so I wanted to make a place or a gallery that would deal with what interests me and what I have always been inclined towards, that is, the Russian avant-garde. We did not have any such gallery. In fact, there is none right now.

S.N.: Before you were appointed director of the Pushkin Museum, you were the director of this Manezh association for a year.

M.L.: One and a half.

S.N.: Even one and a half. And very high hopes were associated with your arrival, with a new exhibition activity.

M.L.: Yes. Well, I did everything that I promised, even more.

S.N.: Yes? That is, this arrival at the Pushkin Museum, which, of course, was quite dramatic, as I understand it, because all these years it was associated with a single name - Irina Alexandrovna Antonova. And this change of milestones actually meant that the museum would begin some kind of completely new life. Did she start?

M.L.: I think so. Fortunately, at the same time as the life that the museum lived before... Because you cannot start a new life by completely closing the old one, stopping it and closing the book. Well, it's not. Next page. Well, a lot has changed.

S.N.: There are, as it were, two concepts of the existence of museums, and they do not argue with each other, but still there are always priorities. The first is the preservation of works of art, masterpieces, and so on, somehow storing them. This is a very important activity of museums. In fact, many of them were created for this. And it must be kept. The second is an exposition, of course, activity, such educational activities. Which in this sense is more important for you, more interesting as a professional?

M.L.: The fact is that since we are now talking about museums that exist today, there is no such topic at all - the topic "What is more important - storage or exposition?". And generally split into these two topics ...

S.N.: Impossible.

Museums as institutions have changed so much... Well, it's like comparing a sample of silent cinema with the most modern art house

M.L.: This is completely impossible, because museums as institutions have changed so much… Well, it's like comparing some kind of silent film, an example of silent cinema, with the most modern arthouse. It's just a completely different story, generally different and about something else. If you now ask: "What is the museum about and what is the most important thing in it?" - the most important thing in it is the space that arises between the viewer and art. I don't want to say the word "pictures". Between art. Here's what's in between. That is, this is an atmosphere, this is a dialogue. Without it, just storage is an archive. And just exposition with exhibiting some works and things for demonstration - this is all pose-pose-the day before yesterday.

Museums don't live like that anymore. They are constantly thinking about how to make the museum alive, that is, to make a person come to the museum, and so that he does not just come to the museum, but so that he feels like a living person in a living museum there. Make him think. Force, force, because he is reluctant, reluctant to think, he only wants to take pictures.

S.N.: Himself in the background.

M.L.: Almost all. No, almost everything is photographed - yourself, for some reason, labels. Yes, in general, everything that moves and does not move, photograph everything. And this should not be treated with arrogance. This is also one of the features of today's museum. You can't be a snob, you can't be a separate being, you can't call yourself the word "temple". Well, that is possible, but wrong. And you need to take it for granted that different people go to museums. And it is necessary to pull each of them so that he begins to think.

S.N.: But you must admit that this dialogue is possible only with a certain degree of enlightenment. That is, of course, it can be at different levels, but in general, such institutions as the Pushkin Museum and the Hermitage still require preparation.

M.L.: Need some. Well, it would be nice if it was.

S.N.: No?

M.L.: Yes! No, its true. That's why I hate Museum Night so much. Maybe I shouldn't say it like that, but I hate it when it's just not clear why ...

S.N.: Who and why, right?

M.L.: So why does everyone need to go at this time? There are these huge meaningless queues when you can just come at the moment when it is empty (and there are always such moments) and enjoy. I don't understand. Well, that means - the drive of the crowd, the totality of emotions that are next to you.

S.N.: And for free.

M.L.: Well, for free, yes. Well, for free... Well, how much is there? The ticket is actually worth a penny. But nevertheless, I still think that it is the generality of the movement that pushes a person there. Well, that's just it. And so, of course, after all, we are the museum that relies on a person who is more or less prepared. Although I am sure that when he comes completely unprepared, we can also dumbfound him. He didn't see anything...

Right now, when there was an exhibition of Raphael, this is still an artist, calculated for contemplation, for such inner thinking, for some slowness, who in the same way, even more than the rest, generally works on human clichés. Everyone thinks: if Raphael, then these are the most boring Madonnas with babies, beautiful, but so insensitive. In fact, this is generally a different artist and about something else.

Nevertheless, the code name "Raphael" brought to the museum all sorts of people who do not go to museums often at all. And it was also very interesting. That is, in general, each of the movements (I don’t even want to say the word “exhibition”, because these movements are different) is designed for some different levels of consciousness, sometimes not even obvious ones. For example, when we did "Raphael", there were several levels of consciousness. Some read them, some didn't. Someone counted one, someone - two, someone - three. Therefore, everything is different. There, in general, there were difficult conversations when the exhibition was shown. And one of the levels, very poorly readable, but existing: we made such a sound installation that was supposed to help ...

S.N.: Someone knocked.

M.L.:... a person to feel in the workshop of Raphael. It was two young composers, very young artists who did… It's very… I don't want to say the word "trend", but it's a very modern approach.

S.N.: Such an approach is relevant.

M.L.: Yes. And thin enough. This is when people, artists working with sound (and these are artists too), create such a complex sound image. And it was very interesting. There it was necessary to listen when there is no crowd. The crowd interferes. But all the same, here are the sounds, subtle sounds, when a brush hits the canvas, the sound of rubbing paints ... That is, these are subtle things.

SN: They create an atmosphere.

M.L.: They create a certain atmosphere. And a person may not understand what it is at all. Well, it's like the 25th frame. Or what is it called? Or third eye. Well, that's already... Or "chakras open". And something like that...

S.N.: It happened, right? There was some kind of vibration.

M.L.: Happens. There were people who just heard it all perfectly. And then - we have a lot of work, which is associated with different people, with borderline capabilities, who have poor hearing or poor vision. Poorly seeing people, when they were brought there, they heard everything, better than anyone else, and read everything. I mean, it's all very interesting.

And children, in whom all chakras are open, as we know, and all third eyes exist everywhere, they, as biological beings, read all this best of all. Everything on the first level signal system, which, as we know, is the most important, everything is considered right there. And although any complex exhibition is designed for the second, that is, for consciousness, for comparison, but the dream of any person who presents such a product or such a movement, my personal dream is still a meeting with the first signal, when a person comes and he is still nothing does not understand, but already vibrates. And I want that when he came in, immediately: "Mmmm!" This is "ah!" must come from within. And you must do everything to make it happen. It doesn't matter what it's called later.

S.N.: In general, it is to direct in some way.

M.L.: Yes, this must be done, because a person needs feelings. We sometimes call them the word "impressions" or whatever. Feelings are the most important.

S.N .: Marina, nevertheless, you will agree that when the word “Rafael” is written on the poster or somewhere, I don’t know, these feelings already begin to vibrate. When the word "Serov" is written there, as it turns out, it also begins, some reflexes instantly turn on.

M.L.: Yes. But not everyone knows Serov as well as Rafael.

S.N.: Like Raphael, of course. But still, this reflex to brands - it remains. And it can't be undone.

M.L.: No. And so the person is arranged, so the person is arranged.

S.N.: This is how a person works. And museum life is arranged. Well, we are convinced that the Gioconda would have hung somewhere in the corridor, and there would not have been all this glory - and people would have passed by it. Well, some would stop, some wouldn't. Well, if it were not for all this entourage.

M.L.: Look, it's important, yes.

SN: It's still important.

M.L.: It is important. And you can't hide the importance of it. And you need to do everything to create it.

S.N .: And the Pushkin Museum was famous for the fact (thanks to Irina Alexandrovna, of course) that these "blockbusters", these star names, here are these great paintings - they have become available. By the way, in one of your interviews I read about how you loved and generally love queues at the museum. Well, for a museum worker, of course, it is very important that people stand and want to get to the exhibition. I remember those four hours that I defended on the Gioconda in some seventy years. It is really an unforgettable feeling of such a pilgrimage indeed. Do you think that this should be included in the museum legend - this moment of waiting for a miracle?

M.L.: I think yes, absolutely. Although the feeling is ambivalent. Of course, it's twofold. On the one hand, directorial ambitions are always filled with joy when you see a lot of people.

S.N.: Such crowds.

M.L.: On the other hand, of course, people are very sorry, and all the time I want to do something good for them. And we always think about what to do for them. Therefore, we expose our bar, and you can have coffee and tea. We make an agreement with the cafe opposite, and they are accepted there, they are given tea.

S.N.: Warm.

M.L.: We give them free blankets, children and the elderly, we conduct all sorts of quests with them on the street. In general, this is the life of the museum. But now, when we are planning a new museum, we are still trying to make sure that people do not stand on the street, so that they have the opportunity to at least stand warm or somehow, so to speak, regulate their employment when they are waiting, because... Well, that's how it works. If it is something very interesting, important or fashionable (an ugly word, but nonetheless), relevant, existing, and people go to get there, they still want to get there more than it is possible, so some kind of crowd arises involuntarily. It is a pity for people standing in the cold and in the heat.

S.N .: Tell me, here is the system that is common in the West - these are Internet tickets, so sign up. I know that in France at FNAC you can buy a ticket to some exhibition. That is, you come exactly to your session, in any case you stand for some time, but still not four hours.

M.L.: Well, a little bit.

S.N.: Is this going to develop in some way? Or does it already exist?

M.L.: It's already working.

S.N.: It works, right?

M.L.: Yes. And "Rafael" all went through like this.

S.N.: It is the Internet in this case that turns out to be a very active and important assistant in order to somehow make visiting the museum as comfortable as possible. And yet, as for, say, guests of the capital who are eager to visit the museum, they see these endless crowds. What would you complain about? What is the best, how quickly to get into the Pushkin Museum?

M.L.: Well, through those institutions that receive tourists, with whom we have a very short relationship. And we interact with them, of course. The arrival hours are booked in advance, because the number of excursions that we conduct is unimaginable.

And the lectures that we give are one of the features of our museum, since even Tsvetaev laid down this “learning gene”. This is our parallel life, it occupies a huge part of us. So we put a lot of emphasis on it. And in our future museum, this is also our power point- learning. That is, we will try to create on the basis of all our curricula something like the Louvre School, which gives a diploma.

This is our movement of today, this year. I hope that in 2018 we will complete it. But this requires a lot of preparation. A lot has already been done, but in order to complete it… Because besides those children who study at the museum at the same time (3,500 children), we would also like that these were adults who really want this. They go to all our lectures. Our subscriptions are running out fast. But the opportunity to give people a truly professional education (to those who need it), to give a diploma that fixes this, is also an opportunity for our museum. Plus online education, which we are also doing now.

S.N.: Tell me… We talked about this in connection with the SBS-Agro collection, that there were many exhibitions, as they say, in the regions, on the periphery, and so on.

M.L.: Yes very many.

S.N.: Are there any initiatives in this sense? Are they supported by local authorities?

M.L.: You know, the local authorities are all happy when an exhibition is brought from a museum like ours, or from the Tretyakov Gallery, from the Hermitage. But, unfortunately, very bad with money.

S.N.: That is, such an exhibition, museum program does not exist, right?

M.L.: No, we have a certain program, but we cannot make as many exhibitions as we want, because it simply requires funds that we do not have. And I believe that if the state cannot implement this as public policy, because we have a special period of development now, existence, more economical, then, of course, we need to work more with the laws.

Of course, we need a law on philanthropy, which makes it possible for people to give at least a certain percentage in favor of culture and education, because otherwise I don’t know what will happen to us. Or give some preferences to people who work in the field or who are simply patriots of their cities (and there are many such people), who feel the need for the city to develop, who simply love the place where they were born or studied, and so on. I know these people and we work with them too.

The museum cannot replace the Ministry of Culture. These should be governors who know their support people, can contact them, but give them some kind of preferences, even moral sense. Sometimes this is enough for people to feel that they are part of a team, that something depends on them. I would generously distribute names, I would hang their signs ...

S.N.: They would hang them where necessary.

M.L.: Where needed, yes. Well, so that people understand that they are included in history, if it is not enough for them just a moral feeling.

SN: Well, I've been hearing about the law on philanthropy for the last twenty years, I guess.

M.L.: Yes.

S.N.: And there is no movement going on here?

M.L.: There is movement.

S.N.: Is there?

M.L.: The first, how to say, movement associated with this law appeared, which allows perpetuating. That is, now we can really hang a sign wherever we want, at least name a house. Previously, this was also ... But the most important thing is missing.

S.N.: There is no financial incentive.

M.L.: Material. Therefore, when we are told what generous American philanthropists are… You know, it is easy to be generous here when such a large amount of funds are still exempt from paying taxes. There is some kind of stimulus, besides the moral one.

SN: We started talking about the "Exchange of Friends". What is this program? Tell me.

M.L.: This is such a widespread program in general in the world museum practice, to which we have also very actively joined. These are the so-called "friends of museums". Every museum has such a community. You too can become a "friend of the museum".

S.N.: With pleasure.

M.L.: And that gives you the ability to... Well, it depends on what card you have. Well, for some very small amount you get the opportunity of three free passes to the exhibition, some free lectures - in general, some preferences. A little more money - more. In short, this is a great and very economical big program. And people become such a more identified part of the museum.

And there are exchanges between museums. When you enter into a cooperation agreement with some partner, with a museum that is close to you and with which you collaborate a lot, then there is an "exchange of friends" between them. We have such an agreement with the Louvre. "Friends of the Louvre" come to us, we meet them, we conduct excursions for them, I greet them. In general, each has its own movement and so on. And they are absolutely happy.

Also, we can send our "friends" to the Louvre, we can give them a tour of the Engraving Room, where no one gets, say, and an employee of the Engraving Room shows them. That is, it is designed for educated people who are interested in some more subtle things, impressions. We will now do the same with the Prado, with the Pompidou Center and so on. That is, this is the movement that we are now ...

S.N.: Such a museum movement.

M.L.: The museum movement, which works great as a diplomatic corridor, moreover.

S.N.: Like some kind of bridge, right?

M.L.: Like some kind of bridge. In general, bridges are our task. Here we are bridge builders, absolutely real. And everything related to cultural tourism. Just not enough for all hands, head and everything else. This is also very important. Because any invitation of our colleagues here, which is fraught with a small retreat from Moscow, just a trip to Polenovo or Tarusa, where we have art residences, or somewhere else, evokes such strong feelings, such love for our wonderful land, really, that you understand that you don't need anything at all. The main thing is that he does not make any speeches, but simply show, nothing more. Therefore, it seems to me that we have not yet used huge opportunities.

S.N.: For the development of this story.

M.L.: Yes Yes Yes.

S.N.: I know (well, a lot has been said about this) that, in general, such a reconstruction is taking place in the museum, in fact, construction.

M.L.: Yes.

S.N.: That is, your karma is to come to the construction site.

M.L.: Yes.

S.N.: And this construction continues. And most importantly, the museum itself will undergo a lengthy reconstruction. I know that in all these big national museums it always takes a long time. How do you propose to build the work? That is, these are the same branches, those buildings that surround the Pushkin Museum?

M.L.: Yes, it's the whole block.

S.N.: As a matter of fact, this will be the quarter that has already begun to live such an independent museum life?

M.L.: Yes, it's true. We will be a little different than in all other museums. All museums are currently undergoing reconstruction. Previously, they all arose mainly at the end of the 19th - beginning of the 20th century, and now they are exactly all being reconstructed.

SN: Well, they are all outdated.

M.L.: It `s naturally. Just old museums need renovation. And our fate is somewhat different for us, simply because we have not just a museum that we are reconstructing and, as it were, improving, but we have a whole museum quarter, a very large one, the entire Volkhonka in this quarter. Throughout this quarter, there are many different buildings, each of which will become a museum or will carry different museum functions, and there are many of them.

We will not have such a tragic situation as with museums that are undergoing reconstruction and are forced to close. This is very difficult for a museum. Usually it is 10, 13, 15 years - in general, this is approximately the same period. And since we have the opportunity for the museum to live, and the new buildings that have opened will allow others to close, and a new life would already begin, then we follow this path.

We already have the Dolgorukov-Vyazemsky mansion under construction and reconstruction, where our beloved Pyotr Vyazemsky was born, where Karamzin wrote The History of the Russian State, where the Serov family rented an apartment, and a two-year-old boy watched from behind the fence how a new museum was being built on Kolymazhny . There will be a Gallery of Old Masters and it will open at the end of 2019 - at the beginning of 2020. The Golitsyn Palace-Mansion will open at the end of 2020. New exposition and exhibition space, depository and restoration space for 20 thousand square meters will open in late 2019/early 2020. The Stulov House, which tells about the text, about the image (it will be a unique building), will open in 2019.

When all this opens up, we will put the old building on reconstruction - and people will be able to live in these new spaces, anticipating what they will see there. And this building will be restored, will be reconstructed. An underground small floor will appear, which will collect in itself, like a Yerebatan cistern, people who come to the museum. And three underground spaces will depart from it. I can't even...

S.N.: That is, it’s like in the Louvre, right? It means you are going down.

M.L.: Yes, like the Louvre. And these three spaces (I can't even call them "corridors" because they are even wider than in the Louvre), which will be open exhibition spaces. That is, a person will not walk along the corridors, but walk through the exhibitions. It will become such an incredible experience.

That is, we build each of these buildings so that, on the one hand, a person can use everything as an anthology, if he suddenly wants to scroll quickly and understand what and where. Basically it is designed for those who come for the first time. And to leave an opportunity for those who are more gourmand about this, to come somewhere and already completely immerse themselves in this state. For example, go to the Impressionist Museum, see the permanent exhibition, see the exhibition space. Each will have a specialized exhibition space, luxurious (one thousand square meters), where only exhibitions related to this topic will be held. Go to a bookstore, where only everything related to the Impressionists, there are souvenirs and books. Go to the Golitsyn wine cellar and buy a bottle with a Monet painting there. Then go up to the French restaurant, which is open, in addition to the museum, and stay there. Go to the cinema, to the lecture hall and hear everything related to this particular topic. That is, it is an opportunity for immersion, it is like for yourself.

I don't know about you, but when you come to some favorite museum... For example, I know exactly where I should go to see what I want. I don’t want to see everything at once, but I want to reach the place that is now yours. The same is true here. So you can… you have the ability to dive. Don't you want to dive, do you want to move, run around in three days? The ticket will be sold for three days, because in one day a person cannot get around everything. He will have the opportunity to return, within a week he will act.

S.N.: Oh, like this, right?

M.L.: And it will be sold, as we plan, at the box office, in general ticket offices, in the metro of the city, so that not only when you come to the museum, but everywhere you can buy and come.

S.N.: To be able to buy. But he is for some certain time?

M.L.: For a certain amount of time, yes.

SN: You know, you asked me: "How do you like it? What do you like about the museum?" And I suddenly suddenly remembered how once I ran in such a gait together with such a wonderful design duo Viktor & Rolf. You probably know. Fine artists fashion, the Dutch, very museum people who know what a museum is. They had several big exhibitions in museums. And they told me: “Listen, this is the only museum you have, about the Hermitage, where it smells like parquet, where it smells like this museum of our childhood. Now there are no such ones.”

M.L.: And it is true.

S.N.: This is disappearing.

M.L.: Well, yes. Well, yes, it disappears. I love it myself. I love old museums where you can still wear…

S.N.: Slippers.

M.L.:...those creepy felt slippers and shuffling around to rub the parquet. Well, treat it like an installation. This should not be treated like a museum. This is a clean install. Not every artist will do this. And the Hermitage is an installation. But all the same, the Hermitage will have to be put in order, because the windows must be put in order, and the dust and light – everything must be put in order. It's terrible!

Therefore, when you think about our museum, our the main task- to save everything, first of all. This is the main task - to save everything. Therefore, we are all protected. But it might not have been. We put everything on guard on purpose. Even this tile is metlakh, which has a crack. We will make the crack so that it is visible and remains.

S.N.: That is, this Tsvetaev device will remain?

M.L.: Everything will be the same, everything will be the same. All casts, everything will remain in place. The content of the building will change a little. The content will change. This will become a place where we will only show items from only our collection related to ancient art. It will become such a British Museum. And this is very suitable. Everything else was post-Tsvetaevsky, in essence. And we will distribute it throughout the Museum Quarter.

S.N.: My last question is related to your personal collection. I know you collect naive art and hats.

M.L.: Can't say it's a collection. I'm not a collector at all. I am an impulsive lover of different subjects. I'm a flea lover, so I can't call myself a collector. But I love naive art very much, though, and I live in it, and I sit on the most uncomfortable chairs in the world simply because they are loved. We live and sleep on Vologda and Arkhangelsk furniture of the 18th and 19th centuries. My husband hates me because all our guests fall off these chairs, they break right under them. But it's an experience. And we eat ... That is, we use everything completely. And yes, I love old Russians ... chintz, and I buy scarves. I do not know why. They just lie. I love Vologda hats, old ones. Well, it's all just like that, pure admiration. But this is not a collection, it's just the joy of life.

S.N.: It was Marina Loshak in the program "Cultural Exchange" on the Public Television of Russia. And I, Sergei Nikolaevich, say goodbye to you. All the best! Goodbye.