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    • Yulia Menshova: “Fear dictates dangerous compromises to us. Do you have non-artistic parents? - It really is.

    07.03.2019

    Yulia Menshova and Igor Gordin are an acting couple with a twisted fate. They were happy, they have two children, and then a separation happened.

    Photo: Vladimir Shirokov

    As a result, four years later, Yulia and Igor began to rebuild their relationship. In our interview, they did not want to reopen the wounds, because now everything is fine. But I managed to convince them that such a story can help other couples not make rash decisions. I started this conversation on a delicate topic from afar.

    Outwardly, you are a very harmonious couple: Yulia is emotional and explosive, Igor is calm and balanced. Maybe behind this harmony lies the struggle of opposites?

    Igor: The struggle of opposites is something from Marxism-Leninism. As a nuclear physicist by my first education, another concept is closer to me - the principle of equilibrium.

    The principle of balance is a good definition.

    Julia: Most importantly, accurate. I just need to be listened to and balanced. When I, blazing with my emotions, come to Igor, he does not ignite. He listens to me carefully, and then says amazingly correct things. His thoughtfulness, prudence and ability to look at the situation with different parties- what I really need.

    Igor, it turns out that you are conducting a psychoanalysis session with Yulia?

    Women need to be given the opportunity to speak. You can even not say anything to her in response, the main thing is to let her throw out her emotions, let off steam so that she understands: everything is not as scary as it seems to her now.

    And it happens the other way around, that you come to Yulia to throw out emotions?

    It happens, but rarely. Still, I hoard emotions in myself.

    Julia, doesn’t Gordin’s Buddhist calmness annoy you?

    "Irritating" is not the right word. Periodically, I push him with my elbow in the side: “Igor, well, smile!” Or it happens like this: I tell him something, I tell him, but he is silent. And then I say: “Igor, at least say that you hear me!”

    Igor, but still something can unsettle you?

    YU.: May I answer? There are two such things: traffic jam and queue. Once in these situations, he climbs to the ceiling in three seconds! And then I say: “Gordin, where do you get such emotions from?!”

    AND.: Indeed, I really dislike queues. Now, however, I have become calmer: I pick up the phone and play games. It calms the nerves.

    Why Julia decided to become an actress is understandable. And what made you turn your attention to the theater, Igor? Besides, you didn't make this decision at a young age.

    AND.: In fact, quite young - at 15 years old. I came to the theater youth creativity at the Palace of Pioneers named after Zhdanov. This is in Leningrad.

    YU.: Highly famous place, its graduates were Lev Dodin, Sergei Solovyov, Nikolai Fomenko. In general, all creative intelligentsia.

    All of the above then smoothly merged into creative life. With you, Igor, exactly the opposite happened.

    AND.: My path was more tortuous.

    YU.: Igor was scared.

    AND.: No, I wasn't scared. I doubted that it was possible to become an actor by coming from the street. But I tried, I entered the theater institute for a course with Dodin, I passed a creative competition. At that time, I was already in my fourth year at the Polytechnic Institute. And for the rest of the exams in the theater they were allowed only with documents.

    You didn’t want to take documents from the Polytechnic?

    AND.: It was too late. The rector felt that even if I took the documents, it would be unethical to allow me to take exams in relation to other applicants. And I decided to finish my studies at the Polytechnic Institute, to get higher education and after that again submit documents to the theater. As a result, I entered GITIS at the age of 24.

    YU.: I think parents also played a role. They were probably worried, they said: “You’re done, son, and then decide on the theatrical.”

    Do you have non-artistic parents?

    AND.: Yes, my father is a physicist.

    Apparently, that's why the polytechnic arose?

    AND.: At 17, few of us understand what we really want.

    Julia, do you know what you want?

    Understood. And she didn't go exactly where she wanted to go. I was thinking of going into journalism or going to literary institute to become a writer. But for this it was necessary to have three published works, which I managed to find out only a couple of months before admission. And I thought: if so, well, okay ... In general, at that time the youth was very infantile. 90 percent of my classmates did not even think about where to go. Where the parents said, there they went.

    Since you had no publications, you decided to follow in the footsteps of your parents, right?

    I thought: I’ll try to enter, and if I’m cured, I’ll go to work. Didn't fly. And I was so impudent that I applied to only one theater institute - the Moscow Art Theater School. As they say, to love is like a queen, to lose is like a million.

    Julia was originally from among the lyricists, Igor - physicists. But you also have a different geographical origin: Yulia is a Muscovite, Igor is from St. Petersburg.

    Yes, Igor has a sense of St. Petersburg origin. Do you, Vadim, know the difference between a curb and a curb, between an entrance and a front door? When in Petersburg you say White bread everyone starts laughing. Because bread cannot be white, there is the word "bun" for wheat bread. The people of St. Petersburg have some kind of special pride, and it has been the subject of our jokes. And Gordina has this St. Petersburg pride.

    In Gordin - pride. And how does it manifest itself?

    YU.: Petersburg do not like Moscow.

    AND.: Yes, Moscow is a terrible city, vain. St. Petersburg has a completely different rhythm of life, I feel completely different there.

    Igor, didn’t you offer Yulia to give up everything, take the children in an armful and move to St. Petersburg?

    AND.: Not yet. But everything is ahead.

    YU.: You want me to offer to move to St. Petersburg? I won't go! I don't like this city - very cold, very rational, built along logical lines. It has no spontaneity. It is beautiful, but only from afar, it is impossible to get comfortable in it.

    I wonder where you, such opposites, met? Julia, were you already an actress at that time?

    No, I already left the theater and was a TV presenter. And Igor worked at the Youth Theater, where I came to the play "The Execution of the Decembrists." My friends took me there. At first, I was skeptical about their idea to go to the play, it was unbearable for me in the theater at that moment, I had a crisis in relations with this kind of art. I decided: well, I’ll sit on the edge, and after the first action I’ll leave. It did not work out: the performance was in a small room, and it was very interesting. Basically, I didn't want to leave. And Igor noted immediately. Him incredible beauty voice, it was he who captivated me. And then it so happened that after the performance we all went to a restaurant together. Igor and I were brought together by ... billiards. I didn't know how to play, and Gordin undertook to teach me. And this is so erotic: a man stands behind, hugs, showing how to properly hold the cue, aim ...

    Igor, do you remember your feelings at the moment when you first saw Yulia?

    We were left alone at the table, I looked into the eyes of the TV star and drowned in them. It was pretty scary, because St. Petersburg really own pride! With Julia, I felt light and free. Despite the fact that Julia was already famous TV presenter, there was no touch of stardom in it.

    Can you even call yourself a loving person?

    Probably not. Of course, before meeting Menshova, I fell in love, because at that time I was already thirty years old. But here's how to get into it...

    Julia, are you in love?

    Highly. And by that time I had novels. But when I saw Igor, I thought: a person of such a plan could become my husband. Why? And God knows! I like silent men. Igor has it: when we are sitting at a common table, he silently listens, smiling with the corners of his lips. And then suddenly he can say something such that everyone will fall under the table from laughter. And he does it with an absolutely unflappable expression on his face!

    Igor, was it scary to meet Yulia's parents? Still famous people…

    AND.: Of course scary! How else: I saw them on TV and in the movies. But first, much more had to be done. important step- improve relations with Julia. It wasn't easy, I had to be brave. At some point, Yulia told her parents that she had a young man, without an apartment, living in a hostel, working as an actor. Her dad said: “Okay, this is our option! We've been waiting a long time!" Don't remember this?

    YU.: No. ( Laughs.) Dad meant that I inherited family tradition. My parents also started out as two completely poor barefoot people who met and fell in love.

    But dad probably didn’t want his daughter to repeat this story, right?

    The parents didn't care. They are convinced that life is long and very changeable. In no case should you focus on wealth or position in society, because no one knows what awaits each of us tomorrow. The only guide that can be in a relationship is love.

    I agree. Igor, you are a talented actor, but still Yulia is known much more than you. How do you feel about the fact that you are often perceived as the husband of Yulia Menshova, does this hurt your acting, and even male vanity?

    AND.: Yes, yes, on my grave it will be written: the husband of Yulia Menshova. ( Smiling.)

    YU.: I do not believe in this.

    AND.: I'm telling you exactly!

    YU.: I do not believe! Igor is a very respected person in theater world. I see with what reverence young artists treat him. They just freeze when he says a word. I believe that Igor is an actor of rare talent, and he is progressively moving towards his goal.

    AND.: I'm not a very vain person and I don't aspire to be on the cover of every magazine. It's not that interesting to me. In the theater I feel more comfortable, and there I achieve some success.

    How long did it take between your first meeting and your wedding?

    YU.: Year. We got married, already expecting the birth of our son, Andrei. But we started living together pretty quickly.

    I want to talk about this. Many couples go through a relationship crisis over time, and so did you. Why did you decide to leave at some point? You have two children, a well-established life, so much lived together.

    AND.: Maybe, mutual language was lost.

    YU.: Our relationship has reached an impasse. It is difficult to analyze this, even in in general terms. It's like a domino principle: one thing falls, catches another. And then there is a feeling of absolute impasse, from which there is no other way out than parting. We have not separated officially, we have ceased to live together.

    Igor, I remember how at that time we ended up with you in the same company. I'm sorry, but you felt inner loss and such aching loneliness ...

    AND.: Of course, this is reflected in the person. You had a home, a family, and suddenly you were left alone. Naturally, it hurts. At such moments, you understand how dear your family is to you, how much these people are more important than personal freedom ... Our problems, it seems to me, began with the birth of our first child.

    YU.: It was very difficult with Andryukha. During the first year of his life, he hardly slept - literally. We worked hard, left in the morning and returned in the evening with a clear understanding that we would not have to sleep at night. Yes, we tried to replace each other, but when a child cries in a small apartment, no one sleeps anyway. For a long time we could not understand the reason why the child was so restless, we went through a lot of doctors. And only a year later they found the one who diagnosed everything correctly. The situation with the child psychologically severely undermined us. And on this, like on a cart, everything else was superimposed on top ...

    Igor, having parted with Yulia, did you become, in fact, a Sunday dad?

    AND.: Yes. Of course, I regularly met with the children. He came home, walked with them, and it happened that he took both of them to St. Petersburg.

    YU.: Parting, we agreed that every summer for two weeks we would all go on vacation together.

    But in such a situation, spending two weeks next to each other is a psychologically difficult test.

    YU.: I asked Igor about this for the sake of the children. For me joint vacation was not a difficult test.

    AND.: It's just that all the attention was switched to the children, our problems faded into the background.

    How did the children react to your discord?

    Yu .: Moments quite sharply. Although before parting, we consulted with psychologists and behaved perfectly in a situation of divorce. We stayed beautiful mom and dad, neither of us, when talking with children, has never sinned against the other. It was, in a sense, a standard divorce. But after a while, I began to notice that despite all our efforts, the situation remained painful for the children. And it was a shock. We all read popular literature, which says: if everything is done correctly, then it will be good for children, that it is more important for a child to see parents happy separately than to observe an oppressive atmosphere in the house. Tasya - she was then two years old - simply shocked me. Igor came to us in the evenings, and if she was still awake, he looked into her room to wish Good night. And so, I put her to bed, and she suddenly started up: “Where is dad?” I say: "Dad has already left." “But he didn’t say “Good night!” to me,” the daughter said and burst into tears. To calm her down, I suggested calling my dad. A two-year-old girl was crying like a grown man, with huge tears. And - also somehow very grown-up! - tried to explain: “Don’t you understand that I don’t want to talk to him on the phone! I want him to say “Good night” to me in the evening, and then I wish him good morning!

    Have you told Igor about this?

    No. But then I realized that I had nothing to cover. That no logical constructions will ever be able to explain to a child what destroys his inner universe. Because in his coordinate system, mom and dad should be together, and this is unshakable.

    Four years have passed. Which of you took the first step towards rapprochement?

    YU.: Both. It happened by itself, all this snowball of problems melted away.

    AND.: We were on vacation in Turkey with our children. Actually, the children connected us. And after a month or so, we began to live together again.

    Julia, how did your parents react when you and Igor decided to live together again?

    YU.: My parents are amazingly wise people: when I got married, they stopped commenting on everything related to my personal life.

    AND.: Actually, Julia repeated the story of her parents.

    Yes, they also parted for four years. Just some karma.

    AND.: I knew this story. Therefore, he did not rule out that Yulia and I would be together again.

    YU.: I didn't think about that possibility.

    AND.: Was this thread closed for you?

    YU.: So categorically I did not think. I understood that we are connected to each other because we have children. Hypothetically, I allowed the situation that I could get married again. But when I tried to imagine that someone would enter our house, get to know the children, get some kind of moral right to participate in their life and upbringing ... This puzzle did not add up in my head. And I prepared myself to be alone. It is even possible that forever. I realized that it would be possible to start arranging my personal life only when the children grow up. And my chances by this time will most likely be small.

    AND.: And I could not even imagine that someone would come into my life. We have children and I am attached to them. He did not consider it possible and necessary to start new relationships, and he invested all the unclaimed energy in children and in creativity.

    How did the breakup affect your relationship? Has there been a reassessment of values? Or is the talk that it happens, nonsense?

    YU.: No, not nonsense! For me it was time correct placement priorities. When you see your child unhappy, you think: are your dissatisfaction with your partner worth his tears? And you understand: there are more essential things. Perhaps this is what growing up is all about.

    AND.: We have become much more attentive to each other to treat, protect and appreciate our family.

    What are your children doing now?

    YU.: Andrei is 15 years old, he is passionate about cinema: he watches films, reads recommendations on the production of films, writing scripts. And my daughter will be 10 years old in May, she is engaged in dancing - hip-hop.

    Tell me, after so many years, do you manage to surprise each other?

    YU.: About three months ago I went to the cinema to see Vanya Vyrypaev's film "Delhi Dance", in which Igor starred. And I fell in love with my husband again. I looked at the screen and thought: God, how lucky I am! Maybe the girls sitting next door dream of meeting a man like Igor. And I already met him. I'll come home, and he's waiting for me there, you know?

    AND.: One of these discoveries happened a year and a half ago, when Yulia tried herself in directing. For her, it was important in terms of creative development. And I really hope that she will continue to direct, no matter how hard it is for me and for the family. After all, she worked on the performance even at night: she built the score with the composer and painted the scenery together with the artist. The desire to bring everything to the absolute is generally inherent in female directors.

    Yulia, are you planning to put on a play with the participation of Igor Gordin?

    Oh, No! I would be afraid. He is so smart and experienced that he would have crushed me.

    Wait, but with smart and experienced parents you have already staged the play “Love. Letters" at the Pushkin Theatre.

    Yes, but what was it worth! I would not like to repeat experiments with relatives.

    - Julia, for four years to be the leader of a successful project, to be a soloist in it, to be able to communicate with interesting people and stop everything. Why? Physical fatigue? Hero shortage? Desire for change? What was the starting point?

    I have a rather restless personality. I do not know how to sit in one place for a long time and I like to change the field of activity. But main reason in the fact that we did voluminous portrait interviews, explored the entire biography of our guest and did not turn to current events from his life. It was impossible to return to the heroes with whom I had already spoken, and our film-theater-variety industry is developing, alas, not at such a significant pace as to “light up the stars” every year. Not to mention the fact that the viewers of the program “Alone with Everyone” preferred meetings with adults who had worldly experience. Young stars did not interest them too much. The program was daily, this is the condition of the project, and this is its charm. If she began to come out once a week, she would lose the audience. No matter how sarcastically we talk about ratings, television all over the world plays by these rules. And they must be accepted. In general, 600 issues, given the above circumstances, is a huge figure. And closing the project was an inevitable decision.

    - Before going to the management, with whom did you discuss this? Did you need the support of your mother, husband, or perhaps a girlfriend?

    I didn't consult with anyone. In general, I make all decisions quite quickly and simply. I have often taken drastic steps in life, and this is a rewarding experience: I am not afraid to move on. Life is a dynamic thing. We always want stability, but at the same time, absolute peace and stability is nothing but death. You have to be able to balance between habit and the courage to move forward, even if the front is unknown.

    - Were you afraid of being left without work on television? For many TV presenters, actors, falling out of the cage is comparable to professional suicide ...

    - When I studied at the theater institute, I heard a lot about the fact that "the theater is a drug, once touched, it is impossible to live without it." Having started acting in films, she heard the same maxims about cinema, and working in her youth on the TV-6 channel, she did not avoid the same conversations about television. Maybe this is my happy nature, but I have never felt so dependent on the profession that I was engaged in. She never owned me so that I obeyed her, and not she - me. Always did what I love. With enthusiasm and passion. But just thinking about "falling out of the clip" seemed to me a little humiliating. Because any fear dictates dangerous compromises to us.

    With Mikhail Politseymako in the play "Stupid"

    - Nevertheless, you have experience when, after the success of the “I myself” program, you were forgotten for 10 years, and there could be no illusions about this ... What did that situation teach you?

    - Forgot about me after all, only television, and not everyone. This is an important detail. I was remembered as an actress. And I, in turn, remembered this profession of mine. And she began acting in serials and playing on stage. I don't regret anything. I made a conclusion, and a significant one. It sounds like this: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." I loved television so much and was so convinced that my success gives me some ... guarantee of future demand that I cut off other options for the development of events. I did not read the scripts that were sent, I refused other job offers. It wasn't very smart. But I am grateful for this experience. First, now I work in different areas, and secondly, that situation helped me accept the unpleasant, but important truth about life - there are no guarantees and stability at all. Nothing! Everyone and everything is in endless motion, the most unexpected variations of change are possible. We should be happy with what we have and be grateful. But remember that "this too shall pass," as it was written on King Solomon's ring.

    - You can not remove the material component from the accounts, money is the prose of life, but a necessity. Or did you secure a certain reserve that could allow you to live in peace for a while ...

    - And I saved up something, and I continue to work in the theater and in the cinema, and my husband works, and my son is already quite an adult, he can help out if something happens, if the edge ... There is another area of ​​\u200b\u200bactivity that interests me very much - theater directing. I have already staged two performances (“Love Letters” at the Moscow Pushkin Theater with the participation of the parents of Yulia Vladimir Menshov and Vera Alentova and the “Friends” entreprise. - Approx. “Antennas”) and would like to continue in this direction.

    - How much is the demand for entreprise now? Can an actor feel protected by acting in such performances?

    - Very much in demand. Much more than many repertory theatres. To the honor of the entreprise, over the 20 years of its development, the culture of such performances has grown a lot. In the last 5 years, just a jerk. Luxurious costumes and stunning scenery appeared. And yes, an actor can feel completely protected working in an enterprise. And respect yourself.

    With Zhanna Epple, Alisa Khazanova and Lada Dance

    - You really are not afraid to radically change your life. In the 90s, not the most simple years, in the absence of stability anywhere, you left Oleg Efremov from the Moscow Art Theater. But not every theater graduate can boast of 15 roles in four years. What drove you then?

    - It became uninteresting to work there, I thought that acting fate was a rather boring way of life. It must be taken into account that I left the theater and the profession, as I thought then, in 1994. At that time, the theater was perhaps the most unincorporated place in reality. Around, on the one hand, the old way of life was collapsing, and it was scary, but on the other hand, thousands of new opportunities opened up. And in the theater there was a slight smell of mothballs and powdered wigs, as if you turn on the TV in the dressing room, and there is a meeting of the Central Committee of the CPSU and Brezhnev speaks. It was extremely contrasting.

    - What were you dreaming about? About fame, money, self-realization?

    “We are afraid to admit our own pain”

    There is no need to push people together, we must try to understand everyone - this is how the host, actress Yulia Menshova, defines the principle of the TV program “Alone with Everyone”. We talked with her about the lack of respect for the opponent in society, about irrational laws in Everyday life, about why she does not condemn priests and where she sees the line between obedience to the Church and freedom

    Childfree. Is it a duty to have children?

    Julia, one of the most emotional and controversial episodes of the “Alone with Everyone” program was those that discussed surrogate motherhood and the childfree ideology (Childfree is an ideology characterized by a conscious unwillingness to have children for the sake of personal freedom - Ed.) Has your attitude to these phenomena changed after filming?
    - Not. I have a very definite attitude towards the topic of motherhood in general, so nothing has changed. As she believed that childfree is a very sad consequence of human egoism, which drives feminine nature in an absolute dead end - and I think so. It seems to me that behind this worldview there is a deep unhappiness and an absolute misunderstanding of one's vocation, the maximum distance from one's nature, with which it is pointless to argue! The final of such a dispute can only be - emptiness, but modern man in his "I want!" comes to such nihilism that he tries to refute his own nature.

    But I am far from the idea of ​​categorically pointing out to people that having children is the duty of any woman to society, to humanity, and so on. Because I am sure that this is not a duty, but a calling. And even a gift. And only in this way can a woman truly open herself.

    - What do you mean?
    - Among the Orthodox you can often hear: a woman is saved by childbearing. I was very surprised by this formula in my youth. It's like: salvation falls on you from the sky as a gift for being so good - you know how to give birth? ..

    And when you have children, you very quickly understand what is the matter: the birth of a child, in fact, forces you to part with egoism for the first time. You don’t want this at all, you even have a serious breakdown! But every God's day you have to give up on yourself - you gradually get used to thinking about yourself last! And at the level of instinct it happens. And suddenly you discover that life is arranged paradoxically: when you part with egoism, you become a person.

    Another very interesting experience of parenthood: after all, you don’t get a return right away - sometimes after a long time what you invested in your child returns a hundredfold. And in your youth you want to receive it right away: you gave it away - so return gratitude to me! It is the upbringing of children for the first time that makes you feel the non-linearity of this process: real happiness is that you take care of another person, not counting your costs, not making demands on anyone “I - to you, and you - to me”. But at the same time, the abandoned “seeds” of this care germinate in time ...

    Therefore, I was just very curious to look at people who declare the opposite position. I wanted to figure out where it came from and why people are so eager to declare it, why?

    - Did you understand?
    - I think it is based on some kind of psychological trauma. Not necessarily from the family. Society also shapes and hurts us.

    It could be fear. Fear of letting into your life something that cannot be calculated in advance. And modern man reveres guarantees, in search of stability. Parenting does not make any promises. And a person prefers not to understand this fear of his, but to live ... an illusion of control.

    And sometimes it is pain or resentment, which a person is afraid to admit to himself, and therefore, by virtue of his imagination, by virtue of his creative gift - and we are all not deprived of it! - comes up with such a consolation, in the form of a position.

    Lies distort everything. When there is a lot of it around, a person loses the habit of telling the truth, including to himself. most simple truth: that something offends him, that he feels unhappy, that he is jealous of someone. And then instead of "it hurts" the person says: "I'm fine and I don't need anyone."

    There was a period in my life when I went to a psychologist. And one day she said a phrase that became a discovery for me then: “You see, the pain must be re-lived. It doesn't work otherwise." This is also the paradox of life: we are all trying to get rid of pain, but we must ... agree with it. The deliverance is not to ignore or forget it, but to recognize it. To accept. Live it. Only then does it leave us without a trace, making room for a new experience.

    For example, I have seen many times how people, getting burned in love relationships, say: “That's it, I won't love anymore!” It seems to be an excellent form of protection, but it protects both from the potential danger of betrayal, and ... from possible happiness ...

    In general, it seemed to me that "childfree" is also a kind of new form protection...

    Surrogacy

    Surrogate motherhood seems to be a more pragmatic phenomenon, its motives are clearer: the family wants a child, surrogate mother wants to make money...
    - I think that this is also a tragic trend of our time, and I don’t consider this situation in the categories that you said about: people wanted to have a child, they got it, a surrogate mother wanted to earn money and did it - everyone is happy!

    The Lord placed in a woman many different mechanisms that determine her attachment to her children: starting with the fact that she immediately loves the child she gave birth to. Therefore, to encroach on this instinct, on the sacred connection between mother and child, to try to treat a woman as an incubator is some kind of madness. After all, a surrogate mother consciously trains herself not to love her unborn child. It's very scary! It seems to me that if surrogate motherhood is promoted in society, this can lead us to very serious consequences.

    The heroine of your program, Antonina, gave birth to three "foreign" children, despite the fact that she already had two of her own, and was quite pleased with her experience ...
    - Yes, and at the same time, despite the fact that many years have passed, she cries, remembering these given children. This pain in her - forever. I think this is an important symptom to pay attention to.

    As far as I remember, the first one was taken from her immediately, in the maternity hospital, and she fed the other two for 10 days at home and only then gave it away, saying: “Take it, otherwise a little more - and I won’t be able to give it back.”
    - Yes. And remember how this situation affected her own daughter? She became afraid of being alone, she was physically ill when her mother left, and as a result, Tonya had to look for a job where she could stay at home.

    After all, a child cannot but feel that some strange thing is happening: here is a mother walking with a tummy, then once - and this tummy is gone, but there is no child - nothing! And no one explains anything to her. Children cannot be fooled! The child simply understands that they do not want to tell him the truth. I think the daughter, at some subconscious level, realized that her mother had left born child, which means it could potentially leave ... and her. And now she will live with this feeling of possible betrayal. Mom and dad for children - this is the foundation of the basics, the first and most important experience unconditional love. And surrogate motherhood encroaches on this fundamental value as well... I am sure that any surrogate born child gets a subconscious experience that betrayal is possible in reality. initial stage life: he is still in the womb, and the mother lives without becoming attached to him, with the thought that she will give him away ...

    This is from the category of irrational things that you can not argue with.

    - In what sense irrational?
    - I think that life is more complicated than we brazenly and self-confidently believe: there is no triumph of straightforward logic in it, but some kind of contradiction. The Lord God did not give us a life in which everything is clear. And thank God! We don’t have such a predestination, a “line” according to which to live, and there are irrational phenomena that you stop before, like a dead end.

    For example, a person becomes himself only when he learns to overcome his egoism, that is, to refuse himself! This is irrational, after all: it would seem that selfishness is where your nature seems to lead you. And you have to give it up...

    Isn't it irrational to ask for forgiveness from the person who hurt you? You didn't offend, but you were offended! It is more logical to be offended or to give back. But, oddly enough, if you feel sorry for your offender, try to understand the motive for his actions, despite the fact that he hurt you, and sincerely - not formally - say “forgive me, I was wrong”, then the situation will instantly change!

    The same “surrogate mother”, no matter how hard she tries, cannot kill her love for the child she has born. Or take the case of divorce. It would seem that you feel bad together, it is reasonable to disperse like decent people: talk to the children, explain everything to them. But children from somewhere know for sure that parents should be together - this is a fact! You can persuade them, you can lie to yourself, say: “Nothing, nothing!” But, in fact, you will always be left with a sense of guilt in front of your child, and the child will definitely feel the loss ... And there's nothing to be done about it.

    - And if they object to you that a child cannot grow up happy if there are unhappy parents next to him ...
    - If you leave out the most extreme cases of alcoholism or domestic violence, then I will say: "Not true." Because these most unhappy parents can start working on their relationship and one day find that they are happy with each other! Much depends on our desire - to preserve or destroy.

    I understand that this sounds too categorical, but I am speaking, including about my own experience. I was also sure that everything can be explained to children, the main thing is to behave decently, to be a good parent. But no matter how fantastic a parent you are, it is still a huge trauma for a child that mom and dad are not together. Though you crack, but it's true! And I even think it's great. Our life is so pragmatic, and there must be some irrational, but immutable things in it that a person cannot do anything about. You can only take them into account when making a decision.

    And every time I rejoice when I discover such paradoxes, and I want to draw the attention of my relatives and my acquaintances: look, this cannot be explained, this does not fit into any laws, - I say or point it out to myself in order to do not get carried away in your judgments, believing that everything in life is clear.

    Irrational "two in one flesh"

    If we are already talking about the family ... Your guest Mikaela said in the program about childfree interesting thing: “For me, there should not be “we” in a relationship, there is no this single whole, but I just feel good with a person, and he feels good with me. In your opinion, does this “we” still exist? Is this again an irrational thing?
    - I think it is achievable, but not only human strength- this is from the category of gifts from above. Like the appearance of children by spouses who were childless for 12-15 years, but traveled to monasteries, prayed, asked.

    It seems to me that if you have chosen a person, you began to live together, then give everything to this process and maybe someday you will find that there is a feeling that you are one. By the way, this is often felt by spouses who have lived together for many years.

    - How are your parents, for example?
    - Yes. Looking at them, I understand what is meant by this “we”, I understand how people really gradually grow into each other. My parents had a hard time adjusting to family values, the character of each is bright, complex. But at the same time, we must give them their due: there is some kind of non-verbalizable component of their marriage, which made them understand that they needed to be together. Temptations, I think, they had plenty. They once lived for some time separately. And throughout their lives, mom and dad had a lot of reasons to say: “That's it!” But they have been together for 51 years! And even just for this fact, I am very grateful to them. It is important to have such an example in the older generation. Last year they got married, and it is surprising, for example, that this was the biggest event for my daughter. She was overjoyed. She said: how good it is, how right, what happiness ...

    Questions or obedience?

    Julia, you are a believer, and the Church speaks quite definitely about many issues of family life, including surrogate motherhood. In your opinion, where is the line between the freedom to hold one's own opinion and obedience to the Church?
    - Highly serious question, which today is very acute. I think if you consider yourself Orthodox Christian must be in obedience to the Church. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask questions! Unfortunately, a sad property is fixed in our mentality: if you obey, then without reasoning, without giving yourself the trouble to think, why, and because of what?

    For example, I remember being very embarrassed by the assertion that one should not criticize church hierarchs - no, never! I thought: “But they are not angels, they are also people, they also make some mistakes.” But I obeyed, but still thought about this question, which tormented me. And, in general, I found the answer.

    First, you do not know the temptations of those priests or bishops whom you condemn.

    Secondly, they are the easiest to condemn, because, relatively speaking, within the framework of church life, it is they who are engaged in public activities, are in full view.

    But the main explanation for me was this: I realized that such a condemnation can cause a very serious temptation for someone, standing next to. People fall away from the Church quite unexpectedly...

    So I had a question and I was looking for an answer! But it seems to me that nothing cancels the search for the church you want to go to, the spiritual father you choose, nothing cancels your inner judgment about this or that subject in the Church. Because no one and nothing will cancel the freedom of choice given to us by God.

    The Church gives an answer to the questions of modernity on the basis of certain traditions. I, again, inquisitively studied these traditions, they seem to me very reasonable, balanced, I understand their logic. Therefore, I tend to trust them, but not just dutifully: they told me, I do it. No, I'm talking!

    The right to be wrong

    - Tell me, is it difficult to adhere to traditional values ​​on television today?
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't.

    I do not put it at the forefront, I do not think that I should carry some kind of mission or promote something. I just believe in it myself, sincerely consider the traditional view of the family the only one that leads to happiness.

    In one of the interviews, you complained about the dictatorship of ratings and, as a result, the boredom and superficiality of what appears on the screen. Isn't this dictatorship putting pressure on you too?
    - The rating dictatorship really exists, but what creates this rating? It's a question of the algorithm. As a person who knows the laws of dramaturgy quite well, I can say that people are attracted to strong emotions. Both positive and negative. Today, unfortunately, it is easier to find a reason for negative emotions. For example, fear is the strongest emotion, the earliest in the human psyche, and it is exploited with might and main. Scandal is another easy algorithm to attract attention and achieve success. You can use it, but it's not required. The rating is based on strong emotions, yes, but anything can be behind them!

    After all, I also appeal to the feelings of the audience, but to completely different ones. Fortunately, this is also in demand and has been successful.

    The topic you are dealing with is human destinies, social problems- does not come. Why do you think?
    - I think this topic cannot get boring, because the dramaturgy of the fate of everyone specific person always convincing and interesting! In principle, all literature, all theater, all cinematography is built on the study of the vicissitudes of human life, on the experience that you can draw from there. Unless some very serious cataclysms can compete with the life of another person in terms of the level of interest caused.

    Have you ever been tempted to condemn your heroes when they declared, for example, an aggressive outlook on life? For example, the girl who said: “I am for Sparta: the weak should not live”?
    - You know, disrespect, condemnation is a very bad basis for any conversation.

    In our country, this topic was touched on just in the program about childfree: the heroine admitted that she was constantly faced with disrespect for her position, and it must be admitted that programs about childfree were usually made on our television in the format of absolute opposition: they imprisoned a representative of this ideology, a large family and ... pushed them head-on! Achieving the above - the scandal.

    And it seems to me that you can delve into the problem only by peering into a person, listening respectfully, without opposing anyone to anyone. Here is a person, and even if he is mistaken, in order to understand what he is mistaken in, he must be heard. Listen kindly, without judging.

    I take a categorically different position than the girl you mentioned, but I want to understand her! And only in peace can you listen and analyze the views of a person. And you can also point out some kind of inconsistency only if you listen, and not indiscriminately argue, not noticing the details and nuances. With all the disagreement with the opponent, respect makes it possible to build a dialogue. A person is much more open when you say: "I do not agree with you, but I do not condemn you." In our society, this quality of dialogue, unfortunately, is very often absent in society. And after all any person has the right on delusion.

    - What other problem would you like to definitely make a program about?
    - Now we are developing the theme of the so-called freaks - about people who greatly disfigure themselves: sew metal horns into themselves, make piercings all over their bodies or frightening tattoos on their faces. Most often they are condemned, pointed with the finger, laughed at. And I really want to understand: what is happening?

    Previously, human intervention in one's appearance was not expressed in such a blatant form. He could change the color of his hair, dress in bright, provocative clothes, but here he interferes with his body drastically! What's this? Self-loathing to that extent? And why do these people change themselves with a minus sign - not in the direction of improvement, but in the direction of ugliness? Theoretically, man as a social being does not work that way. Yes, it happens that we argue with our nature, with what is given to us, but to make ourselves unlike a person is a very strange form of manifestation of ourselves.

    I do not understand this.
    But I want to understand!

    - Julia, when interviewing your guests on the First Channel program “Alone with Everyone”, you give the impression of a kind-hearted, sympathetic, very impressionable person ... However, many colleagues call you the “iron lady”. What are you really like?

    I think both points of view are true in the end. I can say one thing for sure: in life I am absolutely the same as on the screen. I don't play anything there. And how to play, if absolutely everything (!) of my attention is absorbed in revealing my interlocutor?! And about the "iron lady" - this is partly true. Yes, there is some firmness in me, primarily because I have my own point of view, and if I am convinced of something, I need to be persuaded with arguments, I just won’t be fooled. But still, I'm not inflexible. That's about my mother, perhaps, you can say "iron lady". She is actually a very strong person. But in my mother there is another feature that is radically different from me - she is an extremely closed person, an introvert; He treats people very carefully and almost does not let him into his inner world. And I, on the contrary, am absolutely extroverted, I am not afraid of people, I easily enter into communication and easily establish contacts.

    - I have some firmness, first of all, because I have my own point of view, and if I am convinced of something, I need to be persuaded with arguments, I just won’t be fooled. In the studio of the program "Alone with everyone". Photo: Fotobank

    - Curiously, how did your mother raise you?

    Mom's upbringing was formed, on the one hand, by post-war Soviet childhood, and on the other - as we recently found out, Christian dogmas.

    It turns out that seven generations of the Alentovs before my great-grandfather, who became a zemstvo doctor, were priests. Accordingly, certain rules of life were passed down from generation to generation. Here in such a tradition - the triumph of a sense of duty, limitation and severity (sometimes with slight overkill) - my mother brought me up too ... She herself is an extremely delicate and modest person. Here case in point. The film "Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears", as you know, was a huge success. After being awarded the Oscar in 1981, the picture was invited to the different countries to festivals and competitions. Of course, together with the creators. Dad was not lucky, he was not allowed to travel abroad then ...

    - Why?!

    Standard - they snitched on him. The “wrong” anecdote was told on a tour. But, by the way, I don’t remember my father’s serious suffering about this, although he probably felt unpleasant. In general, be that as it may, my mother went everywhere. The daily allowance, of course, was ridiculous, but all the same, she brought something, of course, to me too: jeans, some beautiful blouse, a dress. But! She categorically forbade me to wear these things to school, even if there was some kind of disco. Only to the theater, to visit - that is, within the family circle of friends. Why? But because "very few people can travel abroad and they do not have the opportunity to buy such

    things, which means walking in them immodestly; you can’t offend people with a feeling of inferiority ... ”And all my attempts to convince my mother that most of my classmates often dress much better than me, because their parents somehow get scarce goods, were unsuccessful: she simply did not believe. Mom and dad in this sense were not so much conservative as beautifully naive. That is, they are generally not subject to any corrosion that corrodes the soul, as happened with many who lived in the USSR according to the laws of internal double standard. They treated the Soviet system sincerely and very loyally, and I was brought up in great respect for it.


    Another example. When I was already in high school, my mother did not buy me nylon tights. Cause? I tore them. That is, I put it on three times, but returned with holes - the school plywood chairs were cracked and burred, and I had not yet got used to being careful. And my mother made a peremptory decision: “Every day, new tights are too expensive. So, she hasn't grown up yet." And since cotton tights for my size were no longer produced, they bought me ... simple stockings. You know, those gray-brown, in elastic, like grandmothers? And in the 10th grade, I fastened them to a belt with elastic bands. And she wore pantaloons on top. Well, in general, an inhuman shame, especially when it was necessary to change clothes for physical education.

    - Perhaps at that time many were dressed like that?

    Nobody wore stockings. Honestly. Only me. And the moments of changing clothes in the locker room became, I would say, some kind of attraction.

    - Have you tried to talk to your mother, to explain to her?

    Tried a couple of times - unsuccessfully. “No, as long as you don’t know how to appreciate things, then it will be the way it is.” I had to adapt. I won’t say that I suffered madly about this, but there was an understanding that I was in some kind of idiotic situation.

    - Was the choice of your profession discussed with you or did your parents decide for you?


    - On the contrary, there was even a certain distancing, they say, if you want to enter theater university get ready yourself. In the ninth grade, dad said: “If you have any idea about the theater institute, go and try to appear under a false name (before creative competition documents were not required then), check yourself, feel the atmosphere. I didn’t have an unambiguous idea about the acting field, but nevertheless I did it, and, I must say, quite successfully. Moreover, she went through tours in various theater schools and everywhere made a worthy impression, which somehow amused my pride.


    Finding out that I was in the middle of a journalism department, I decided, what is called a fool, to try to enroll in acting department not to lose a year. She reasoned like this: “If I do it, I’ll go to the theater for a year, make publications and go back to journalism the next year.” Moreover, she didn’t want to show up at all universities, as is customary, thinking rather arrogantly: “Oh, to love is like a queen, to lose is like a million, I’ll only go to the Moscow Art Theater School!” And so she did, although it was a huge impudence. Just like in the ninth grade, she went through several rounds before the competition under the name of Bolshova, so that no associations with anyone would arise, and ... oddly enough, she entered. (With a smile.) And she remembered journalism only eight years later, when she left the Moscow Art Theater. Chekhov on television. Moreover, she came to work for the position of a contributing editor, and, by the way, did not want to go to the frame at all.

    - Did your parents help you in your studies, in finding a job?

    You see, although no one told me directly, I know for sure: many were sure that I was everywhere through pull. This feeling has always haunted me. On television, at first, behind my back, they unequivocally whispered: well, everything is clear, a failed artist, she didn’t succeed in the theater, now she was attached here. And at the institute they considered thieves. Feeling this, I suffered a lot. And I understood that I needed to work ten times more than the others in order to prove to everyone that I was rightfully in my place. By the way, during my entrance exams, my parents were not in Moscow at all, and when I told them about the result, they reacted to it very calmly, in an everyday way, I would even say, dispassionately. “Did you get in? All right, well done." And no excitement. The same thing happened when I graduated from the institute with honors.

    And what, it’s not customary in your family to react to some key events in each other’s lives, to arrange something about this?


    - No, at least in relation to me. And I still do not consider such a parental reaction to be correct, I think this is one of their mistakes. Moreover, during my studies, they still tormented me with endless criticism, going to extremes: they say, I have to pick up the documents, because they are the worst. Once, at the end of the third year, they put the squeeze on, and I still went to pick it up. Then our masters of the course kept me back: Alexander Alexandrovich Kalyagin and Alla Borisovna Pokrovskaya, who said: “Yul, in fact, the conclusion must be drawn like this: father and mother cannot be invited to exams. They have the wrong response. And we give you five. You study well - not only are you no worse than everyone else, but, on the contrary, you are one of the best ... " the smallest details. And I must say that growing up in these circumstances was sometimes not easy, I was very offended by them for injustice. In youth, after all, everything is perceived especially sharply.


    But over the years, analyzing our conflicts and becoming a mother myself, I came to the conclusion that any parenthood is, in general, an incredible creative experiment, in which everything is for the first time for all participants, where it is impossible to predict anything and avoid mistakes. And she began to evaluate mom and dad in a completely different way. Without emotional harassment, without claims for the fact that they didn’t give me something or that they were guilty of something before me. That is, the older I got, the more I understood the motives of many of their actions. Including those dictated by fear for me. They themselves once literally broke through to Moscow, lived in poverty, sometimes on the verge of poverty, and my relatively carefree life probably seemed to them too contrasting with the circumstances in which they themselves grew up. What dictated the fear that I would not grow up empty man. As a result, it is worth recognizing: even if their methods were not always perfect, but it was they who shaped me the way I am: resistant, self-confident, able to take a hit. Which, in general, came in handy in my life, and many times. In short, all my grievances against my parents disappeared forever, I have no complaints against them for a long time. Not for a second. To this day, I accept them in any way, adore and thank God every day for the fact that they are alive, healthy and still next to me. (With a smile.) Well, and ... I watch how now my children are probably collecting their backpack of grievances that will be presented to me after some time. Because it is an inevitable phase of the parent-child relationship.

    - Julia, have there been conflicts between your parents?

    Did mom and dad fight? Endlessly. Which they still do, with great pleasure. They swear to death, so that it takes your breath away. Sometimes, in the midst of a quarrel, one of them may say: “So, it turns out what kind of person you are!” Which every time is proclaimed as a discovery. From the outside it looks very funny, given that a year ago they celebrated a golden wedding, that is, 50 years of marriage.

    - Sometimes, in the midst of a quarrel, one of them may say: “So, it turns out what kind of person you are!” But a year ago, the parents celebrated their golden wedding (2004). Photo: RIA Novosti

    - And who is the initiator of the incidents?


    - This is mainly due to the incredibly short-tempered nature of the pope. He just seems so cute, soft and fluffy. Which is not always true. Dad has a crazy temperament, he is sometimes very angry, and it is at home. At work, somehow it extinguishes in itself. It is unlikely that any of the artists will say that Menchov at least shouted at him. I had the good fortune to be on the set of the film "Love and Doves" and saw what kind of atmosphere reigned there: jokes, laughter, endless love and universal mutual adoration.

    - And at home, then, is not it?

    First, dad is an incredible pedant. And therefore ... The plate should be washed immediately after you finished eating, the cup - immediately after the last sip. As soon as she put an empty one on the table, she was immediately supposed to disappear from it - in the sink or in the dishwasher. And if suddenly, God forbid, after drinking coffee, you relaxed a little and, putting down the cup, went somewhere, a hail will immediately be heard in the back: “Julia, why do you think that someone will clean up after you ?!” - "Dad, I'm not counting anything, wait a second, I'll come back and wash." No, it doesn't. This is so, for example, in everyday life. Actually, there are a million reasons. At the same time, he is quick-tempered in the same way as he is quick-tempered. It is noteworthy that everything happens in a second. There was just a wild scandal, the cry was incredible! They razed you to the ground, rolled you into asphalt, you are offended, because all this is unreasonable and terribly unfair, after all, they didn’t even listen to you, and you accumulate a reasoned indignant answer that doesn’t have time to utter, because dad has already forgotten everything and is turning to you, to tell, for example, some funny story. How?! Wait, we were quarreling to the death with you right now ...

    And how does mom react to all this?

    Mom is very patient, but she is with a rod. Doesn't give up. In general, somehow for half a century they still balance. I don't understand how. Mystery.

    - Such a variant of the Italian family?


    - No, there are two raging sides, both spouses are equally emotional. And here the female side is icy. The reaction is noble-aristocratic. In response to my father's noise, uproar, scream, my mother's manner is emphatically restrained and unperturbed: “Don't shout like that, Volodya. I can hear well. Please change your tone." Realizing that this turns him on even more and he becomes even more inflamed, I, sitting next to me, gently kick my mother with my foot and whisper: “You don’t need to talk at all now, just shut up.” Because I am sure: even if you really want to protect your dignity, then not at such a moment. It is wiser to wait and do it after the typhoon has passed. This is absolutely obvious to me, although I know my father at least six years less than my mother. But I'm not a mom.

    - Did you share your girlish experiences with your mother?

    Only in early childhood. Subsequently, we began to move away. I don’t even know why, but I stopped feeling the need to discuss anything personal with my mother, but I began to actively keep diaries, doing the deepest introspection, introspection. And she was very dissatisfied. Regarding what happened in my inner world My teenage years were quite difficult. Although, perhaps, this is common to all teenagers.


    Here are some people who sympathize with parents who have children. adolescence. But, in my opinion, the most unfortunate during this period is precisely a teenager. In his soul - a real hell, wild throwing. He is in total inconsistency with the world, dissatisfied with everything, everyone and himself in the first place. And he does not look the way he expected, and the looks thrown at him are humiliating, and the words spoken to him are insulting, and in relation to those around him - neglect. No longer a child, but not yet an adult. Self-esteem fluctuates from the highest peak: I am a genius who will say a new word to humanity, to the very bottom: I am insignificant and incapable of anything. Endless swing. But only in this way the internal start is formed. For the first time, a person feels the need to assert himself. Any independent solution. To the point of being ridiculous: will I wear a hat or not? And inevitably there is a conflict with parents, especially since we often do not keep up with this internal growth of our children, perceiving only external changes.

    My son is now almost 17 years old, and, perhaps, because I remember myself perfectly at his age, it seems to me that his teenage period went very well with Andrei. Although it hasn't ended yet. For some reason, I understand that sometimes you don’t need to bring up a boy to be harsh in my address, but simply take your hand and ask: “Did something happen to you?” Maybe not even at the same second, but a little later. Of course, I’m far from an angel, I don’t have a temper, and if there’s absolutely too much going on, I can easily shout: “Don’t you dare talk to me like that!”

    But I still understand that the reason for any external rough breakdown is in internal weakness: it means that something has completely gone wrong and you must definitely find an opportunity to talk heart to heart, ask questions, figure it out. And we talk, and there is always some reason - pain point, sometimes one that the son himself was not aware of.


    Three years ago there was history. The guys in the school yard caught everyone who came out, took them by the legs, by the hands and threw them into a snowdrift. Andryukha also got caught. I came home in such a state that I realized that the person was on the verge. Almost does not want to live. He didn't say that, of course, but I felt it. And somehow I realized that it was not worth upsetting him, despite the fact that, upon entering the house, he was very rude to me. On the contrary, she became alert and began to try to unwind the situation step by step. So I found out about this story and realized that for her son she looked like he was so insignificant in the eyes of his peers that, despite resistance, you can disrespect him so much that you just take it and leave it like unnecessary thing. He reacted so sharply that he was unable to see the situation differently, in the sense that no one had a bad intention, a desire to offend. Just a funny joke, the usual tricks, albeit a little stupid. When we talked, he was able to see this option as well, he shifted the emphasis personally from himself. Calmed down.

    My parents, of course, did not really understand such things. Their conversation was short: you can't be rude, that's all. However, I didn’t really do this, I definitely didn’t show aggression: after all, I’m a girl. Although my mother says that she was very touchy. But my resentment was expressed in the fact that I fell silent and went to cry in my room. In short, at some point, the close relationship with my mother was interrupted, and when I began to study at the institute, a war actually began with my parents. That is, all that unsplashed teenage impulse, which for others took place from 13 to 15 years old, happened to me from 17 to 20. I felt independent, I believed that, having become a student, I already have the right to manage my time and make decisions at my own discretion . And the parents still tried to put pressure on them, forced them to be subordinate to the rules of the family, built them into a familiar system that was convenient for them. In general, with some delay, they realized that I grew up and went my own way.

    Or maybe they were just afraid to let them go free? Now you yourself are the mother of two children - aren't you scared? Dangers lurk everywhere: bad companies, alcohol, drugs... How can children be warned against this?

    I think there is only one way - by remaining friends with them, so as not to lose trust and mutual understanding. In any case, I see my main concern in this. Therefore, all our quarrels are short-lived, and even then rather in the form of a discussion of this or that act. By the way, I consider the most catastrophic variant of quarrels with children when parents use the formula “I don’t want to talk to you and have a relationship with you.” And they close up for two or three days. And even more. As a punishment. This is where there is every chance of “losing” your child. He will seek understanding and love, but not from you. And who?


    Not to mention that we, adults, need to be aware that any child must go through the denial of their parents. Because he experiences a complex in relation to people who have hung over him authoritatively for many years. And in order to overcome this bar, he must, as it were, jump up, refute the elders, overthrow the authorities. And the parents of a teenager need to be so wise as to ... provide him with such an opportunity. He also needs to practice conflict, and with those who are stronger - then it will come in handy in life, oh, how useful. It also makes sense from time to time to admit that you are wrong, how to “lose”, giving your child a feeling of victory over himself. And yet - more and more to become equal partners with him. By myself, I noticed that I often say to my son, for example: “Listen, well, I’m offended that ...” That is, I appeal not to obedience, but to understanding. Including understanding my feelings. Well, praise, I think, should be more often. For every little thing. Adolescents pretend that they no longer care, although in fact they are extremely dependent on the assessment, they need it more than ever.

    Oh, it’s easy to argue, of course, but I myself am far from ideal and do not always correspond to this wisdom. But I try, although it doesn't always work out. Suppose I understand that it is impossible to hover over children all the time, you need to trust them ... to live. We endlessly broadcast to them own fears. But I am also an absolute psychopath, I am madly afraid of everything, I periodically say: “Call me as soon as you leave school!” - and I really want to rebuild a corridor in which to let my children in, in order to protect them from everything bad. At the same time, I am aware that this is my problem and I must restrain myself. After all, it turns out that I constantly tell them about a world in which it is very scary to live. But how, then, can they enter it? Therefore, I work on myself and try to balance at a reasonable level - if possible, I don’t fit in, I don’t interfere.

    - Your parents, you must understand, have not grown up to such heights of psychological knowledge and understanding?


    - Not. But, if they fell short in this, then in another they influenced me very much - with their advice, considerations. And if mom formed some moral foundations, then dad very intensively directed my interests in the right direction. “Have you read this? Not? Well, how is it? Read ... In such and such a museum was? Not? Strange... You don't know very well classical music... "And I, realizing that I was not catching up, immediately grabbed that book, rushed to that museum, to the conservatory. Dad is a huge authority for me in this sense. He is also incredibly erudite. He literally knows everything, from any field, he will answer every question. Having arrived at one time from Astrakhan and entered the Moscow Art Theater School, and then VGIK, he ended up in a completely different world, which he aspired to, but which was very far from the realities in which he lived his childhood and youth. And therefore, the father was tirelessly engaged in self-education, self-discipline, self-education, considering important quality the ability to force yourself to do something. One of my dad's favorite quotes: "A person is a habit, a habit is character, character is destiny." And having studied the path of self-education very well, he subsequently guided me along it.

    - What about love? Have you discussed with your parents?


    - Oh, I was very amorous, I often fell in love. But not discussed, no. I somehow put them before the fact. All school loves were unrequited. I suffered quietly in my diary. I remember that my girlfriend and I in the eighth grade were in love with two tenth-grader friends, walked arm in arm with her during breaks, looked in their direction, sighed. It’s probably hard to even call it love, rather, we inspired ourselves to train quivering feelings, without even pretending to reciprocity ... And when I entered the institute, I fell in love all the time and almost all the time I was going to get married. What she immediately reported to her parents: “We are going to the registry office!” And each time they protested a lot, saying that this young man did not suit me at all. Nobody approached them. And I must admit, years later it turned out that they were not so wrong. But since action gives rise to reaction, I think that is why I always intended to get a stamp in my passport - in order to immediately clearly determine the state of affairs: they say, comrades, everything is serious here, we have not some kind of shura-mura, but a responsible decision. But despite the desire to demonstrate my independence and independence, I stopped every time in time. Although a couple of times my beloved and I actually applied to the registry office, but then I still caught myself and reversed.

    - When I entered the institute, I fell in love all the time and almost all the time I was going to get married. What she immediately reported to her parents: “We are going to the registry office!” And each time they protested a lot, saying that this young man did not suit me at all. Nobody approached them. At the 70th anniversary of the Moscow Art Theater School with parents and children Andrei and Tasya (November 11, 2013). Photo: PhotoXPress

    - Why did marriage still take place with Igor Gordin?

    Well, we met much later, I was already 27 years old and period youthful revolutions was far behind. And I was already really ready to become a wife, and not play marriage. And then ... How can you analyze love? I saw him - we were in the same company - and the thought flashed through my mind: “What a handsome young man! That's the kind of guy that could be my husband." Right there right now. Even though we haven't really met yet. Despite the fact that he was sitting so silent, modest, not trying to impress at all. True, he is silent, silent, and then he suddenly jokes so that the whole company falls down with laughter. By the way, a sense of humor is of great importance to me. Included in a set of qualities in a man that are absolutely necessary for me. But meanwhile, we were in no hurry to the registry office. They lived together for more than a year in a rented apartment before they started talking about the wedding. At that time I already worked with might and main on television, hosted the program “I myself”.

    - When Igor and I met, I was already 27 years old and the period of youthful revolutions was far behind. And I was already really ready to become a wife, and not play marriage. With husband Igor Gordin and children Andrei and Tasya (2009). Photo: PersonaStars

    That is, you are a celebrity, very popular, and your husband is not yet an accomplished actor. Such a discrepancy - both status and material - can hurt male pride ...

    Yes, such a difference in positions for a family is a very serious test. But in your youth, you don’t understand this at all. When we got married, Igor saw that for me all this hype, popularity did not matter, just like it was absolutely indifferent to me whether he was an accomplished artist or not, how much he earns. For us, only one thing was significant: our feelings for each other.

    But over time, this state of affairs began to influence Igor very strongly. Yes, and on me, although, I repeat, the fact that Igor’s career did not immediately develop ideally was not something catastrophic, primarily because I knew how my parents started, who were nobody, guys from the provinces who came conquer Moscow. But, apparently, "a drop wears away a stone." In general, I am sure that our union collapsed after seven years, including for this reason. We have not handled the situation with due wisdom, we have not been able to go through such an ordeal. And they parted ways. Thought, for good, but it turned out, for four years.

    - Your parents also parted ...


    - Yes, in this sense, I repeated exactly family scenario They also lived apart for four years. The only difference is that at the time of their separation I was three years old, and our children with Igor, when we parted, the son was six years old, and the daughter was about a year old. And the reasons for leaving are somewhat different. Dad and mom say that they overstrained themselves very much in everyday life. Unsettledness and poverty dope them. There were no helpers; if I was sick, I had to think of something, when I was healthy - to drive to a nursery. At the same time, dad is a student again, now VGIK (Mikhail Romm took him to the course as a graduate student, because there were no other vacancies), there are no scholarships, at night you have to earn extra money in a bakery - unload bread and write scenario developments there, in the supply room making storyboards. Therefore, household chores and caring for the child mainly fell on the mother. And she worked in the theater, and went on stage even in the eighth month of pregnancy and returned to work as soon as I was born. She simply had no right not to work, because the family still lived mainly on her 60-ruble salary. So she played 30 performances a month - it's normal, a young artist, all matinees are hers. And since my mother did not have milk, she still had to travel with me in a bag on the tram from the hostel to the dairy kitchen. Here on these everyday problems, as parents say, and their relationship collapsed. It seemed that without each other it would be easier.

    - But they did not formalize the divorce?

    No, it was somehow connected with housing, with a complicated re-registration of documents: if dad got divorced, he would lose his Moscow residence permit, which mom had just received from the theater. And mom, although she was more radical, went to meet dad, said: “Please, until one of us has an urgent need, we will not get divorced ...”


    By the way, in parting with Igor, the domestic reason also partly took place. Andryushka did not sleep at all for a year after his birth, and this turned out to be an unexpected test of strength for us. To put it mildly, we are tired. Both after all worked, I - very much. True, there was a nanny who came during the day, but returning home in the evenings, we knew for sure that we would not have to sleep at night. This greatly annoyed us. A purely youthful feeling was also added: when it’s hard for you, it seems that your close person He could have helped, but he didn't. And since the other thought exactly the same, mutual claims began. And everyone thinks that it is definitely harder for him than for another. Obviously, all young people go through their own circles of hell, although the solution to the problem is very simple: do not present any bills to anyone. In general, due to wild fatigue, the first discord began to occur in us. Then everything seemed to normalize, but, you know, the sediment of irritability remained, no matter how the crack grew. And on this basis, the already existing stress factor has intensified - that very difference in positions.

    They didn’t insert hairpins on this topic to my husband - they say, you are a man, the head of the family, which means that you yourself have to do something in order to somehow break through, is it enough for me to pull everything on myself? Or were you wise enough not to?


    - Maybe that's what I didn't say, but, of course, I thought that he needed to make some decisions, go to work somewhere else, try something new. Moreover, I myself experienced the extreme dependence of the acting profession and it seemed to me that I had to take life into my own hands, knock on all doors, search for myself more widely. But a close person, even if you don’t say something out loud, still feels everything. But it seems to me that this was not even the case. I could be the most perfect, flawless and savvy in psychological aspects wife (which I, of course, was not), but I’m sure: you can’t console a person who has already formed a complex inside. Years passed, but the situation did not change dramatically - I remained in demand, earned money, bought an apartment, and no matter how much I repeated: “It’s okay, don’t worry, in the end, other times will come for you ...”, Igor’s male pride is difficult resigned to this situation. Here a lot depends on the internal self-esteem.

    Did you, following the example of your parents, also decide to just live apart for a while, or were you in the mood for a radical divorce?

    - How did the family recover?


    - First of all, the children helped. Without them, most likely, we would have diverged irrevocably, because we would have tried not to intersect. And they bound us with the need to see each other. At the same time, we got the opportunity to take a break from each other and look at our situation with an open mind, think about everything calmly, unwind the tangle of mutual insults. You know, strange as it may sound, but I am very grateful to our divorce and I consider this time - alone with myself and at the same time having complete freedom of action - my final growing up and the most important in the life of our family with Igor.

    Obviously, both of us experienced some kind of reassessment of values, an awareness of the non-randomness of each other's choice. Listen, in four years, each of us could arrange our lives a million times. But for some reason we didn't. I think only one thing held me back: the understanding that some main thread between us had not broken. And when it became obvious, everything negative faded into the background, and suddenly the main essence of our relationship appeared again - love. Once again, having gone on vacation with the whole family, Igor and I practically returned together. For several months, however, they were cautious, they lived as if in a novel - who knows, what if it suddenly seemed that nothing serious would come of it? No, it didn't seem to. When they were finally convinced, they decided to move into the same apartment again.

    The departure of a father is always a trauma for children. When you thought that you were breaking up forever, did you somehow talk about this topic with your husband or let it go by itself?


    - Before carrying out our trip, I consulted with a psychologist several times. I brought him home, conducted several tests with my six-year-old son, consulted on how to present information correctly so that it would be perceived as less painful, and only after I received comprehensive recommendations on this issue did I talk to Andrey. I tried to present the current situation even as some kind of adventure - they say, now it will be possible to visit dad, have fun with him. Only after that Igor moved. And I insisted that we should develop a mandatory, fairly frequent schedule for his meetings with the children. Moreover, on the advice of a psychologist, I made a decision that was not too simple for me then: I would definitely go on vacation together once a year, which Igor and I regularly observed. During these joint trips, we lived in the same hotel, but in two rooms: Igor - with Andrey, I - with Tasya.

    I must say that in the situation of divorce, Igor behaved impeccably: he paid a lot of attention to the children. Yes, we both behaved perfectly, putting the interests of children at the forefront. And I consoled myself with this, thinking in modern formulas: children cannot grow up happy if their parents are unhappy with each other, and divorce, in fact, is not so terrible. Now, having walked this path myself, I can say that life is not as linear as we would sometimes like.


    When Igor and I parted ways, Tase was only nine months old. That is, she did not remember at all how we lived together. And then one day dad, as usual, came to visit the guys. Chatted with them, played. When I returned after the performance, I took my daughter to bed. They kissed dad. She is two and a half years old. I have already laid down with her, telling a fairy tale. Igor, according to tradition, stayed for a short time with Andryukha in another room, put him to bed and quietly left. Suddenly, Tasya sat up in bed and said: “I didn’t say good night to my dad!” I whisper: "She said - when she went to bed." - "Not! I forgot, I didn’t say…” - and, I see, he is almost crying. I try to calm her down: “Listen, you don’t have to worry so much, after all, we can always call dad - and you tell him if you want?” Then huge tears began to roll out of my daughter’s eyes, and she tells me in some surprisingly adult tone: “Well, how can you not understand, I don’t want to say “good night” to dad on the phone! I just want to say good night to him in the evening, and in the morning - " good morning". But the daughter could not remember the former order of our life, and she had not yet gone to the garden, had not heard the stories of other children. That is, at that time she did not have any models that could be guided by.

    This story pierced me to the very heart. I realized that I had nothing to answer. But I held on to my conviction that everything in the world can be explained to children. The realization of this very seriously shook my confidence that divorce can be painless for children. It's not true, it's like an atomic explosion for them. Because they know with their hearts, with their souls, how it should be. And for them, parents are indivisible. It is important for them that they are together.

    - Did you worry about the divorce of your parents?

    Who knows what would happen if dad married another woman and then lived with her, and not with us, and mom got married. How would I feel about their divorce now, as I got older, if they didn't get back together? Life, like history, does not know the subjunctive mood. But since, as a result, from my first grade, dad began to live with us again, I have the most beautiful memories from my childhood. And during their divorce, I did not have time to feel slighted. Although I missed my dad. Trips to visit him, walks with him, trips to the market were much more joyful because of this. Dad was a holiday. Mom - weekdays. But I knew that I was loved by everyone. Although, by the way, I also thought about the option: if only the holiday lasted every day, if dad lived with us.

    - Julia, what attitude do you live with now?


    - With the fact that the family and in general your inner circle is the most important thing, and everything else is secondary. Love for humanity begins with love for one's neighbor, and not vice versa. And I am also very passionate about the idea of ​​Vladimir Yakovlev, who was on the air with me in the fall. Frightened at the age of 50 years of impending old age, he decided to study this issue and wrote the book "The Age of Happiness". Incredibly inspiring. because old age- not necessarily decrepitude and disease. It all depends on our settings. If we go to old age as a “living out”, then most likely it will be so. But each age has its own meaning. And, as it turned out, old age may well be a chance to change the paradigm of life, profession, do something radically different, comprehend, try something new and, as a result, live long, healthy and happy. Such people who live at a respectable age - keyword! - with pleasure, a huge amount. Because it turns out that over the years the brain loses only in speed, but plasticity and quality remain the same. So the whole question is only in our stereotypes and the courage to break them.


    As for me personally… You know, in 2014 I somehow clearly understood that I had entered that happy phase of my life when I can afford not to prove anything to anyone. I didn't care what they thought of me. Truth. Just understand correctly, there is no selfishness or, worse, snobbery in this. It’s just that in your youth you feel the competitive environment extremely acutely and it seems to you that “being the best” is a measure. And over the years, you feel that something completely different is priceless: to be yourself. And do what you are truly interested in. What I wish you all in the new year. Oddly enough, this is the result of the secret of any success.

    Julia Menshova

    A family: husband - Igor Gordin, theater and film actor; son - Andrey (16 years old); daughter - Taisiya (11 years old)

    Education: graduated from the Moscow Art Theater School

    Career: from 1990 to 1994 - actress of the Moscow Art Theater. Chekhova, TV presenter (among the programs: “I myself”, “Alone with everyone”), TV producer (“Next to you”), theater director (play “Love. Letters”), starred in films and TV series, including: “Act , Manya!", " Balzac age, or All men are theirs ... ”,“ Big love ”,“ Strong marriage ”

    “Alone with everyone”, First, Monday-Thursday, 17:00

    look,

    “Dad called me and said: “Here they repeat the program“ Raffle ”, in which we were filmed, and I realized that you were very beautiful woman!" - "Yes, what are you!" - I was in a hurry. - "Yes! And I even think that even now you are probably a woman of stunning beauty, I just don’t see it, just as I didn’t see it and didn’t understand it then.

    - Julia, after a break, you have been on the air of Channel One for a year and a half. I interviewed your father and I know that your parents like the program "Alone with Everyone" and they are very proud of you ...

    If so, they don't talk about it to me like that. All of us in the family are not particularly generous with verbal praise, although we change over the years. As a child, when our family friends told me: “How your father loves you!” - I was terribly surprised. I did not feel this crazy love then, did not understand. My parents were often strict and demanding towards me.

    - Do you have an early memory?

    Yes, very early. I remember watching my sleeping parents through the twigs of my crib. Apparently I was about a year old at the time. Because then in our dorm room, my place was behind the closet. I still remember how New Year I was given a gray plastic hare with a drum. Then I was not even three years old. My parents said that Santa Claus would come, and I, without leaving the room, sat under the tree and waited for him. But somehow I was distracted, I went to the kitchen, and when I returned, this hare with a drum was already sitting under the tree. I was terribly glad for him, but I was very worried that Santa Claus appeared at the very moment when I left.

    I also remember the nursery-kindergarten to which I was sent when I was three months old. And as soon as I got out of infancy, they transferred me to a five-day period. The times were not easy. Dad was listed as a graduate student on the course of Mikhail Romm at VGIK, and he was not entitled to a scholarship. At night, he worked part-time, unloading bread in a bakery. But, of course, we didn’t have enough money, and soon after giving birth, my mother went to work at the Pushkin Theater.

    LEARN MORE

    In the hostel, my parents tried for some time to leave me with their classmates - students or actors who did not have a performance that day. Jokingly, they even called me “daughter of the regiment.” But, of course, a five-day period in such a situation was the best way out. This is another early memory: the group and I are on a walk, and I look towards the fence, waiting for dad or mom to appear soon. Apparently, it was Friday, when the children were taken away.

    - Your parents separated when you were three years old and got back together when you went to school. What were these four years like for you?

    Oddly enough, it was the happiest time! Because if I came to my dad, his whole day was dedicated to me. We went to the market with him, bought food, he cooked delicious borscht, and I sat on the refrigerator and watched. Of course, I dreamed that my parents would unite and we would live happily ever after. But when this happened, no splendor came.



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